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Old 03-27-2012, 10:40 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I have already set up an appointment with a local breeder who has been breeding German Shepherds for many years and actually used to groom my last GSD for me, so I will continue looking to him for advice and guidance.
This is a great idea.
Since we haven't seen your dog's pedigree/papers (and neither have you in fact!) we can't make great or accurate suggestions, in all reality.
Maybe he's got excellent lines, etc. but the fact he didn't make the training cut at police work is significant.

BTW - I know it's no excuse for being rude, but we have a rescue and we are used to the fall-out (unwanted puppies, especially at the 8-10mo. range) when people decide to breed their dogs simply because they have reproductive organs. It doesn't sound like you fit that category although at first it was unclear (we should have asked more questions).
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:52 PM   #42 (permalink)
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This is a great idea.
Since we haven't seen your dog's pedigree/papers (and neither have you in fact!) we can't make great or accurate suggestions, in all reality.
Maybe he's got excellent lines, etc. but the fact he didn't make the training cut at police work is significant.

BTW - I know it's no excuse for being rude, but we have a rescue and we are used to the fall-out (unwanted puppies, especially at the 8-10mo. range) when people decide to breed their dogs simply because they have reproductive organs. It doesn't sound like you fit that category although at first it was unclear (we should have asked more questions).
I was going to get him fixed right away and then the man told me about him already being promised to stud. Although it's completely in my rights to refuse to stud him, I thought it wouldn't hurt to at least look into the possibility and find out about it. My first GSD was actually a rescue. When I first got him, I didn't believe that he was purebred. It wasn't until I got him groomed that I could actually tell he was a GSD (even though they told me he was, lol). He was a long coat, and the people who he was taken from actually set him on fire. He made a full recovery and other then having a flair up in one of his legs on rare occasion, he was such a blessing for our family. Being a rescue I was a little hesitant if it would work, if he would show aggression from being abused, but he was absolutely wonderful with our children. I have looked at rescues over and over again and with a few breeders at dogs/puppies and I didn't find one that even came close to my Max's temperament/personality until I found Zeus. These dogs are a apart of my family and I don't take it lightly. I appreciate your kind words and I look forward to what Zeus brings to my family (even if it is simple companionship )
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:59 PM   #43 (permalink)
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can you tell me who the breeder is that you're going to for advice? and can you pm me the answer. i probably have information that would be helpful to you, but would like to take our conversation to the private message area. thanks.
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Old 03-27-2012, 11:06 PM   #44 (permalink)
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(even if it is simple companionship )
Ah, but this is the best
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Old 03-27-2012, 11:08 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Ah, but this is the best
agreed. He is by my side 24/7 (except for when I'm in class or working of course. haha I don't think they'd let him in the OR.)
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Old 03-27-2012, 11:15 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I honestly do think you should know something about the combinations and possible outcomes of a breeding and that is not being judgemental - I know for example, too much Grim z PS in a pedigree can cause soft ears/ bad hips. There are some combinaitons that should not be made etc etc. even if the stud is a stellar dog who has proven himself with a breed survey, schtuzhund titles or working certifications, and progeny on the ground.

Over time I have learned enough now to know that I do not know enough about what combinations work and what does not and have seen some locally produced puppies from basically good parents where the outcome was less than stellar. So I really respect those who put the work into it to produce the best possible puppies. Of course, if you are committed to a few breedings, so be it. My first point was that we are not "hurting" for a lack of working line dogs out there; what you have is probably nothing unusual.

I would read some of the threads on neutering or not. I would definitely wait until he is fully grown at 3 or so before I would neuter a dog, if then. (And I don't have any plans to breed, just think they are healther intact)
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:21 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Personally I think this is putting the cart before the horse. First of all, if you own the dog in full, you are not obligated to offer your dog for stud based on some previous agreements with the previous owner. Second, we know nothing about the dog, there doesn't seem to be any health testing done (and what we're talking about is not just going to the regular vet for a thorough exam, he needs to see radiologists for correct x-rays and have hips and elbows properly evaluated and certified, etc). Normally, those who breed and breed with integrity work their dog and do all this testing and THEN decided whether or not to breed the dog, not the other way around of contemplating breeding before any of this has begun. If I were you I would not worry about this. Just enjoy your dog. If you are genuinely interested in breeding in the future, then use this dog for a learning experience. Join a good club, start training, observe trials.

I agree with Nancy, you don't need to neuter your dog but leaving him intact doesn't mean he's a stud either.

Also, if you cut corners (I know you are here to learn and doesn't sound like you'd be doing so intentionally....but still) think about the types of bitches people will be bringing to your dog for stud service....probably not very good quality ones. Probably not a good way to start making a name for yourself and your dog(s).

The reality is that good studs, even TOP studs like the BSZS winner or the WUSV winner are not that expensive and not that difficult to get access too, heck I've even seen some nice up-and-comers advertised for FREE. GSD studs are a dime a dozen. It's way more practical to enjoy your dog for what he is and *if* he turns out to be this one in a million dog, offer him for stud, then try to jump through all these hoops to have a stud dog that more than likely doesn't have a whole lot to offer (I'm not trying to be offensive, I also own two intact males so this is something I've gone through myself).
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:59 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Also, it would be a good idea for you (OP) to learn about the breed in general. There are basically 3 main groups of GSD types out there (there are others, but the 3 I'm mentioning are the most known). There is the Working line (which is what you seem to have) the German Showline and the American Showline. The 3 types are still all GSDs of course, but are bred for different goals and/or looks. I'm over simplifying here, but trying to give you a quick run down. If the 2 females that are lined up to be bred to your male are from the other types, then you really need to question those who own the females. Do they have any idea why or why/not they would want to mix the lines? Like has been stated in other threads, it is done, but usually when a very experienced breeder is trying to introduce some trait into their lines.
Here is a page giving you an overall picture of the different GSD families, should get you started.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:45 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Everyone else has said it well. I am sure your dog is a fantastic companion and a really nice dog. However, I agree that a dog that washed out of police work, with no pedigree, no title, and no OFA report will only attract less-than-stellar quality people with less-than-stellar bitches. When breeding GSDs (or any breed), you want to breed only the best to the best; in addition, there are certain combinations you DON'T want to make, even if both male and female are stellar. For example, doubling up on certain bloodlines can cause severe aggression issues, even if both the male and female have good temperament. Doubling up on some bloodlines can produce bad hips, hemophilia, poor temperament, DM, yada yada yada. It seems like breeding dogs ought to be the simpliest thing in the world, but doing it the right way is more complicated than you can imagine. It really does take an expert who understands genetics and GSD bloodlines to look at both pedigrees; only an expert will know whether it is truly a good match that will benefit the breed and the humans that own them. Otherwise, it's a crapshoot known as "backyard breeding", and is the reason why there are so many unhealthy GSDs with poor temperament around today.

I see that you really want to do right by the breed, and your dog. Thank you!! We get so many yahoos that come in here and think they want to breed dogs, having no care or concern for anything they produce except $$$. If you were treated rudely in the beginning of the thread, that is why--we mistook you for a yahoo. People here care passionately about the breed, and hate to see it destroyed by people who have no clue what they are doing. Backyard breeding is bad enough in a small breed like a Chihuahua, but a large, powerful, potentially aggressive breed such as a GSD, it can be disasterous. Take a look at the forum and see all the threads about inappropriate aggression, fearfulness, behavior issues, health issues, people getting bitten, etc.

Anyway, it seems you already understand that, so I won't continue on that soapbox.

Before you even think about offering your boy for stud, as the others mentioned, you need to first wait until he is two years of age so that he can get his hips and elbows x-rayed for OFA. If the OFA comes back good, great! There are a host of other health screenings you'll need to do as well; DM, CERF, etc. Once he clears all that, you'll have to think about titles. Now, he's a police dog washout, which is a red flag, but it doesn't necessariy mean he can't do SchH, or AKC obedience, herding, tracking, etc. This will take time, and during the training process, things about his temperament may come to light that will give you more information about why he washed out of police work. Not enough drive? Nerves not stable? Not courageous enough? etc. If he can in fact acheive a title, it means he may still have something to offer, but the female he's matched to will need to make up for what he lacks.

Now, let's say he's passed his OFA and health checks and gotten his SchH, obedience, or whatever title. At that point, here's what I would do if the owners of the females haven't disappeared, gotten tired of waiting and bred to some other mediocre stud that doesn't have any bothersome requirements, and are still interested in breeding to your boy: Ask for their females' pedigrees and their OFA report. If they say "she aint got none o' that", or "What's an OFA?" you know you are dealing with less-than-stellar people who probably have less-than-stellar, backyard-bred dogs. Keep that in mind. Politely tell them that without at least a pedigree and an OFA report, you cannot even consider their females. Once they learn that they'll be out several hundred dollars to get hip and elbow x-rays, you probably won't hear from them again.

If, for the sake of argument, they come up with the pedigree and OFA papers, post them here and have us look at them. I bet you 10 to 1 that the pedigree will be mediocre, or at least, an unsuitable match for your boy. Then you politely tell them it isn't a good match, and for the good of the breed and your own reputation, you'll have to decline.

For the sake of argument, let's say the pedigree is awesome, the bitch herself is awesome, and the match is determined to be a good one. Great! The next step is for the bitch to attain a title. In Germany, SchH1 is the minimum requirement for breeding. Here in America, there are many different types of working titles aside from Schutzhund; AKC obedience, herding, tracking, even agility and rally is at least something that shows the dog can be taken out in public, obey, and perform.

Okay, now, lets say all our ducks are in a row; pedigree, health testing, title, everything is in order. Both dog and bitch need a brucellosis test immediately prior to the breeding. If that comes up clear, then I'd say you *might* be good to go for breeding.

I say "might" because there are a hundred things that could go wrong in the whole process; the bitch may not accept your dog for breeding, the breeding may not take, you may find out something about the bitch or the owner that you don't like, or in fact you may find out something about your own dog you don't like! You can back out of a breeding agreement at any time. It might make the owner of the female mad or sad or frustrated, but hey, stuff happens.

See, it's pretty complicated. Too complicated for me; I thought I wanted to be a breeder until I found out everything that's involved doing it the right way. I decided to leave it up to the experts, as I don't have the temperament for it.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:47 AM   #50 (permalink)
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think about the types of bitches people will be bringing to your dog for stud service....probably not very good quality ones.
This is an excellent point, people don't usually pick untested/untitled dogs who washed out of academy to breed their bitches to.

If you own a top-of-the-line female, and wanted to breed her, would you pick a dog with no papers, no titles, nothing, or a well-known, titles up the ying-yang champion stud?
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