For or Against: Punishment or Roughness in Training

[GSD Fan]

What I mean by punishment is . . . let's say you have a dog that likes to poop in the house. So what you do, is you pop the dog on the nose and stick his or her nose in it. That's what I mean by punishment. Now what I mean by roughness in training is like jerking the leash on the dog. It's not exactly punishment, but it's rough.

So when you train a dog or dogs, are you for or against using punishment or roughness in your training?

I myself really don't know enough to have a say in this. I read in books that punishment and roughness actually have a reverse effect. I've never popped a dog on the nose, but I did have problems using the training methods that I read about. Like for example, my last dog would not stay still enough for me to put the halti on. She would bite my hands and chew on the halti. One day some guests came over and saw this and the man said, "Why don't you slap the mess outta him? He'll stop then".

I don't know enough to say whether or not I had done that would she have stayed still.

[Chris Wild]

Punishment has no place in dog training. Dogs do not understand punishment, especially after the effect. It is a human concept, not a dog one.

Corrections often do have a place. But they are not to serve as punishment, rather as information to the dog to bring clarity. What form an effective and appropriate correction takes will depend on the dog. For some it might be "no", for other's it might be a leash pop. Whether a correction is "too rough" would really depend on the individual dog.

"Roughness" is such a subjective term as to be meaningless, IMO, so I cannot answer the poll.

If one thinks a leash pop of any sort is "rough" well then I guess I'm pro-rough at times, depending on the dog. Though it's certainly no where near as "rough" as the corrections dogs give to one another.

[mssandslinger]

I personally feel that dogs respond better with positive reinforcement, instead of jerking the collar to get attention, say their name in a happy voice and give a treat when they follow you. then learn that you are the best thing around. They aren't afraid of you. but its from my opinion, I know some friends in Shutzhund training who beg to differ with me. but my way works for my dogs

[Lilie]

Great reply Chris!

[Jax's Mom]

Originally Posted by mssandslinger

I personally feel that dogs respond better with positive reinforcement, instead of jerking the collar to get attention, say their name in a happy voice and give a treat when they follow you.

How confident would you be with this training with your dog in a room full of wide open hazards? Like a garage full of poisonous substances?
I only say this because I tend to agree that punishing your dog isn't worth tormenting them for training purposes, but yesterday, out of nowhere one of my dogs decided to run out onto the road (they never do this) and it would have been nice at the time for them to know in the back of their mind that when mom catches up with them, they're going to be beaten senselss.
I often see dogs at the park whose owners can get mad and yell loud enough for their dogs to know they mean business and no matter what is happening, they should stop what they're doing right then. I'd like to be able to do that but unfortunately my dogs know I'm full of sh1te (and dog biscuits).

[gsdraven]

Originally Posted by Jax's Mom

I often see dogs at the park whose owners can get mad and yell loud enough for their dogs to know they mean business and no matter what is happening, they should stop what they're doing right then. I'd like to be able to do that but unfortunately my dogs know I'm full of sh1te (and dog biscuits).

I'd much rather my dog stop what they are doing and come to me because I am the greatest thing on earth and coming to me when I call is a GOOD thing and not because they are afraid they will be beat if they don't.

[GSDElsa]

I agree with what Chris said.

Roughness also depends on the dog and what you're asking out of them. Sometimes use it sometimes not. I also think "roughness" can be used to make the dog a little more intense and drivey and get better results. Not in a "correction" sense but to get them revved up. if I think Elsa is being a little lazy I'll "push" her (that's not really the right word), be loud, clap my hands, kind of get in her face...it's not meant as a correction, per say, but to get her attention on me and some more jazz in her step. Some dogs might not be able to handle it and some people might think I'm being abusive or manhandling her, but it has a positive affect when I need it. She can be a hard dog and it's almost like playing and engaging her.

[Lilie]

I don't think you can roll it all into a neat nut shell. Each dog is different and requires modification with your training meathods.

Example: I am in the barn with Hondo. All the horses are in their stalls. Hondo decides to greet one as she had her head hanging over the stall door. I was standing there next to the horse's head. The sneaky snot suddenly lunged at the horse to catch it on it's nose - but I caught him before he reached her. It was a matter of split second, quick as a wink, all I could do at the time was shove him backwards. He was mid lunge so he lost his footing, rolled on to his back, flipped over and left the barn. Now, he won't go near the stall doors when the horses are in them. He'll go into the barn, walk through with out a problem. But he won't approach the stalls. Hondo is a year old - that was the first time I ever used my hands against him in punishment.

[JustMeLeslie]

My two shepherds are different with Victor he is every head strong so he needs me to more firmer with him but on the other hand Jamie is very sensitive to your tone. If she needs to be corrected a simple NO works for her and if need be a BAD puppy command. That is all I need with her. I have to be positive and watch my tone with her. There are times I have had to be firmer or rougher with a command with Victor and push his head away because he likes to get mouthy with min pin or puppy. It all depends on the dog. They are all different. I never rub noses in pee or pop on nose. That sort of correcting is not necessary with this breed and IMO does not work.

[clearcreekranch]

Originally Posted by Lilie

I don't think you can roll it all into a neat nut shell. Each dog is different and requires modification with your training meathods.

Example: I am in the barn with Hondo. All the horses are in their stalls. Hondo decides to greet one as she had her head hanging over the stall door. I was standing there next to the horse's head. The sneaky snot suddenly lunged at the horse to catch it on it's nose - but I caught him before he reached her. It was a matter of split second, quick as a wink, all I could do at the time was shove him backwards. He was mid lunge so he lost his footing, rolled on to his back, flipped over and left the barn. Now, he won't go near the stall doors when the horses are in them. He'll go into the barn, walk through with out a problem. But he won't approach the stalls. Hondo is a year old - that was the first time I ever used my hands against him in punishment.

I would have done the same thing in that situation. I don't think that you can call that anything more than a correction that was absolutely necessary under the circumstances.