Opinion- Ruger's breeder a BYB or no?

[RebelMoonGSDs]

Now, I don't want to start a fire here, but I'm posting a poll because I am really interested in people's opinions. I feel that the breeder I got Ruger from, while not active in "dog sports" was also not a BYB or if so, not typical. However, I won't get mad if people think they are still just a BYB after reading the following, and want to express their thoughts as to why, POLITELY and in a non-condescending manner.

About the breeder:

1) They are new to the breed, having gotten their first GSD 4 years ago (she is 4 now) after doing research on the breed and deciding it was the one for them. They prefer working line dogs, though this particular bitch is "Am show line" (she looks more German to me, good solid bone, straight back, but her sire had good bone as well, CH Von Hornberger's Royal Prince.).

2) They have bred two litters and have a third coming (all from same sire), the female was bred at 2 years old and again at 3 1/2 and the next one is due in a few mos. They had gotten OFA Good hip and Elbow Normal ratings on her, before she was bred the first time (to an AKC Reg. Czech stud with 0/0 "a" hips). They are able to provide the documentation on these tests/cert's, so it's confirmed and not just their word. This is her last litter and she's getting spayed. They also have a close relative who shows and breeds Labs, who has helped them learn what they need to do before breeding, and during the pregnancy/whelping process.

3) They kept a full sister to my pup (from the prev litter) and she helps them herd their goats and such, has good manners and strong but not crazy drive to herd/chase, as well as a friendly, open temperament towards people and children (they have 4 children between eight and 14 yrs old). She has never tried to hurt the goats, even the smaller kids. All pups are given their shots until they are sold (after 10 wks), and they have Limited only AKC registration. While they don't have a spay/neuter contract, they encourage speutering of their pups, since any litter would be nonregisterable by a pup they produced anyway, and they have said they don't want people breeding their pups (I am going to suggest a speuter contract to them, I don't think they know they can do that, actually). They are fed Cal Nat puppy food (which I think is pretty good since even a few serious show breeders I know feed Pedigree). Their pups are kept in a clean environment, and have not only their littermates, but their older sister and another female GSD (LH East German working lines) to teach them about socializing.

4) After meeting all their dogs and talking to them, they seem to have it together, and are willing to answer any question I ask them. As soon as I asked about Hip xrays they provided the paperwork, no prompting. Their dogs are well mannered, have good temperaments, and I can say that while Ru has a strong prey/chase drive, he is also gentle and calm around kids, small animals (though this took some training since he's clumsy- he was never mean), and very, very smart.

So, based on this, what say ye? As a side note: They don't compete in "dog sports" but the dogs they have do herd their goats and have very good obedience and responsiveness, and Ruger is shaping up to be a very good candidate for many things that I never considered doing before, as I had only thought to do Agility and Obed/Rally-O when I got him. Now we're looking at TD training and I want to find someplace to do a herding test.

Ruger @ 12 mos, 78.8lbs and 25.5" at the shoulder:

[JakodaCD OA]

well I think Ruger is just the handsome-est boy,,I love those black dawgs!

I would not consider them byb'ers..I would say "hobby" breeders?

The most important thing to me are good health/temperament, they've done their health testing, and from what you say, they have good tempered dogs.

In fact PM me the breeder's name , I am in CT, and am always on the look out for good breeders in my area.

[holland]

I wouldn't consider them byb either Sounds like they have learned about breeding from different sources do health testing I don't think that just because someone doesn't title their dogs makes them a byb

[Minnieski]

They sound good to me! If you're not interested in dog sport I don't see why you should have to get a dog from someone else who breeds for those characteristics. They seem to have done their homework and actually care about their pups, so they seem to be pretty good.

Nice looking boy, too!

[Holmeshx2]

I wouldn't technically say a BYB either. I think people try hard to put a label to everything and sometimes it just can't be done. Since people are stuck on titles maybe BB or BIT??? Beginner Breeder, Breeders In Training lol. Everyone starts somewhere quite honestly and if they are doing what they should be doing and putting the animals first then it says something to me. While I like my breeder to have titles it's not everything to me because there are plenty that buy a dog with titles or pay another trainer to get a title on their dog and personally I prefer the breeder to obtain the title because to me it's about the process of obtaining the title not just the title itself. They learn the ins and outs of their dogs through working them and GSDs are designed to be herders so if they are training them to herd then they are still doing what they need to do in my book. Plus if their dogs are well trained and they are working them in something they still know their dogs because they trained them and went through the process so know what to expect. Sounds like a decent start quite honestly.

[angelas]

Honestly...

The lack of titling in this case doesn't bother me much. The dog works the farm and that is also a test of working ability. I would want to see the parents off the farm though to see how they are nerve wise in a more populous setting like downtown where there is more going on. I've seen dogs that are great on their farms with their people but who could never handling coming into town either through lack of socialization or poor nerves.

[Josiebear]

I think your breeder is a hobby breeder . If you're happy with his temperament that's what it really matters and just my personal opinion titling isn't really that important to me. Sure it's nice to know what you're getting i think it's just a piece of paper.

[boeselager]

First off your Ruger is a gorgeous boy ;-) They sound like pretty responsible hobby breeders to me!!!! and just b/c they don't have titles on their dogs doesn't mean their dogs are crap, so to speak. Titles are not everything to the dog.

[Jax08]

I don't think they are BYB. I, personally, prefer breeders who show or trial their dogs just because I like to see the proof of what they are producing but I do not think that showing /trialing makes a good breeder either.

My definition of a BYB is...

1) They have NO health checks/certifications on their "breeding" stock, nor do they plan on getting any.
2) They have done NO research into breeding.
3) They do not care where their puppies go as long as the cash is there.
4) They breed the same female over and over without giving her a break.
5) They do not have a contract and don't care what happens to the puppy.
6) Vet care for pups is spotty at best.

I"m sure there are lots of other items that could be added to the list of red flags.

[holland]

I am not sure how may breeders breed like that I don't know maybe some do I guess I also don't feel that there is anything helpful between distinguishing between a backyard breeder hobby breeder commercial breeder. For me the important criteria is are they willing to take the dog back./health clearances. Why do you want a dog from that breeding because you posted for reccommendations on the internet and someone gave you a name? It almost becomes like I think I'll get levis because everyone else is wearing them...not that levis aren't good jeans. When I bought my house there were certain things that attracted me to it gave me a good feeling...it just felt right. It probably doesn't make a lot of sense but to me selecting a breeding would be the same thing. Even if you select the breeding based on color and you pick the dog out--if you came to the internet people would tell you thats not how to do it...but if it worked out right for you what was wrong with that? I also believe that your first dog will likely be different from your next dog because if you get involved in doing things with your dog you will meet people and be exposed to different dogs and from there you will get ideas on what you want from your next dog...and to me that doesn't mean that my first dog wasn't a great dog or that my first breeder wasn't a good breeder because he introduced me to the breed It gets tiresome to me to just read the same old things over and over again