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No more stacking coming to America?

16K views 78 replies 20 participants last post by  dojoson41 
#1 ·
An interesting change in standards, about time.

Best In Show Daily

this looks interesting. The UK has made a big change in the GSD standard in regards to stacking and what it implies.

Personally I like a more natural stance. That goes for a more natural focus in obedience trials as well.
 
#2 · (Edited)
Wow! They did it! Apparently that Cambridge report we were talking about last week had some teeth in it.

I think this is a great start. The "retraining" classes for the judges will probably get fairly interesting:surprise:

This shows it can be done. It would be interesting to hear the AKC's take on this. The KC change should make it easier for them to push toward this change here. A a huge boost for that effort. If this is indeed based on recommendations from the Cambridge report, more changes are likely to come with the dogs health in mind. Working with the judges, breeders and JQP on education.
 
#3 ·
My BIL sent me this article....I thought it might be of interest to members who pursue conformation and the show ring. Probably old news perhaps.

"GERMAN Shepherds must no longer be stacked in the ring and instead shown free standing on a loose lead only."

"The KC believes the culture of double handling, ‘widely practised and condoned at breed club shows’, has a particularly detrimental effect on the temperament of dogs, who often show symptoms of enormous stress while being exhibited and at other times, the KC said. Erratic movement and apparently exaggerated conformation were other concerns which the review group looked at."

Full article...... Best In Show Daily


SuperG
 
#9 ·
Nah.
quote "who often show symptoms of enormous stress while being exhibited and at other times"

It isn't training . It reflects the basic nature of the animal.
Observe the dogs in the parking lot, at ringside preparing to go in , you see it when the judge approaches . It's fairly obvious .

What stress is there to run around in a circle.

Spent a lot of time and energy , along with Linda Shaw , to institute temperament tests at least for the dogs going in for the respective National breed clubs , Specialty show where GV , GVX , are awarded . Those are the dogs that the fancy will choose for breeding so having influence to that faction of the breed .

Good for them to change things up. High time !
 
#5 ·
I'm sorry to see the stack go, because a natural stack is just gorgeous. Of course, how often does one see a natural stack in the show ring? LOL.

I agree with Jax - the temperament issues they are referring too has NOTHING to do with double handling - what they are seeing is the core temperament of the dogs.

What I'm hoping for is that if they can't blame the spookyness of the dogs on double handling, they will have to admit that the dogs are nerve-bags and disqualify them.

Naaaaa - it'll never happen!

I wonder though, how the no-more-stacking is going to affect the physical conformation of future dogs? I've read the original article on another site, how sad is it that they have to come out with a rule that specifies that a dog should be able to stand normally, and unsupported. Like, wouldn't you think it was common sense that if a dog can't stand on it's own without falling over, that is NOT a good example of the breed? Yet that is why they came out with these new rules, top-level dogs were so angulated and so roached, they couldn't even stand without leaning into their handlers.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I have seen my dog standing in a natural stack three times in my backyard, not just a relaxed one (she does that much more often) but a fairly exaggerated one. It's amazing to see the whole back line straight but at such a high to low angle (and still the back foreleg was not in contact with the ground (only her pads).

Queston; If these dogs can be trained to hop up on a 6 inch stool and sit up - why can't they be trained to walk into a natural stance and hold (a comfortable less exaggerated one) when in the ring? Will that be allowed?
 
#13 ·
Queston; If these dogs can be trained to hop up on a 6 inch stool and sit up - why can't they be trained to walk into a natural stance and hold (a comfortable less exaggerated one) when in the ring? Will that be allowed?


They can be trained to walk into a stack. Handlers do it all the time.
 
#15 ·
They just need to throw some working lines in there. You know those dogs who are so in tune with their owners that the owners have to hide because they'll dig in and try to put the handler on their face? And balls? OMG...put those things away and stop screeching! My dog thinks he needs to do a bark and hold on you!

At least that's what MAY have happened at an SV show. LOL
 
#16 ·
Honestly it feels more like an attempt to satisfy angry internet people rather than actually make a difference. Changing the standard, getting rid of 3 point stacking, and double handling will do nothing. (More importantly the last two don't even affect the dogs' structure, if you have any structural knowledge you can still critique a dog in a 3 point stack). For example this is what the KC standard said before that GSD that started this was placed, it clearly shows all the negative aspects of that dog as faults. Yet that dog was still placed? Clearly just having it in writing didn't work...
The Kennel Club
Temperament

Steady of nerve, loyal, self-assured, courageous and tractable. Never nervous, over-aggressive or shy.



Body

Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long. Overall length achieved by correct angle of well laid shoulders, correct length of croup and hindquarters. The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away slightly in a straight line to the gently sloping croup. The back is firm, strong and well muscled. Loin broad, strong, well muscled. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be heavily penalised. Croup slightly sloping and without any break in the topline, merges imperceptibly with the set on of the tail. Short, steep or flat croups highly undesirable.

Hindquarters

Overall strong, broad and well muscled, enabling effortless forward propulsion. Upper and lower thigh are approximately of equal length. Hind angulation sufficient if imaginary line dropped from point of buttocks cuts through lower thigh just in front of hock, continuing down slightly in front of hindfeet. Angulations corresponding approximately with front angulation, without over-angulation. Seen from rear, the hind legs are straight and parallel to each other. The hocks are strong and firm. The rear pasterns are vertical. Any tendency towards over-angulation of hindquarters, weak hocks, cow hocks or sickle hooks, is to be heavily penalised as this reduces firmness and endurance in movement.
What needs to happen is a change within the judges and breeders. I would rather see them find a knowledgeable figure in anatomy, someone like Linda Shaw, and have them create a new certification for judges. Not only that but open up or offer these things to the public too, so that the breeders can learn about correct and functional structure as well.
 
#22 ·
I know some dogs stack naturally and they can be trained to free stack but using the two pictures posted as examples, neither looks like it's free standing or natural. I thought that's what the KC was going to be requiring. (free standing, natural without exaggeration)

I wonder if the KC would accept dogs like shown in the pictures or are they going to be looking for four on the floor, possibly allowing one leg slightly further back than the other, which is more of a natural stack.

Article also says pasterns must be vertical. Assuming they mean more vertical than horizontal, not perfectly straight up and down?
 
#25 · (Edited)
Mine always set themselves up. Here's Sage as a 5 month old puppy, and then again as an adult. I've been known to laughingly say "nice stack" when one of them stops in the middle of the yard, in a natural stack.

ETA: she's not set up by me, standing by the MINI. She's just waiting for me to get to the car.



 
#26 · (Edited)
Exactly what Diane said. My dogs free stack naturally at a very young age...like, 4-6 weeks. On the rare occasions they stand four square, they stand under themselves, so their hocks are still not vertical.

This is just standing on my porch...3 point, not hand set


Mikasa and her younger brother, free standing in my house


Same bitch + a sister. Not set up, just standing.




 
#28 ·
Exactly what Diane said. My dogs free stack naturally at a very young age...like, 4-6 weeks. On the rare occasions they stand four square, they stand under themselves, so their hocks are still not vertical.
Learn something new everyday. :smile2: Can you explain what you mean by they stand under themselves?

My dogs will free stack but they also stand 4 square. Excuse shedding winter coat...

 
#27 ·
This bitch is basically free stacking constantly, so if it looks "unnatural", I don't know what to tell you. She naturally sets herself up correctly and dynamically with no outside influence.

I just wish I were on the other side of her for this photo
 
#29 ·


Well, she seems to be missing her front feet, but you can see how she's standing anyway. Point is, they stand this way as puppies.
 
#33 ·
Anyone that's been around GSDs knows that their 'stack' is completely natural for them. When I see them stand squarely, it looks very unnatural to me, maybe because of their natural angulation, they seem to have their legs more drawn up under them than a squared off breed.
 
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