Does SAR not exist in Ontario, Canada anymore? - Page 5

Mrs.K · 11-26-2012, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elisabeth_00117

Carmen - just curious - if a dog was trained in schH but had not received any titles yet would they still be considered "bite trained" and be disqualified? Just trying to understand why Zefra was evaluated the way she was when it was fully disclosed of her training history. She has never titled (yet) obviously as at the time she was 16-17 months old.

Not all teams dismiss SchH dogs.... just saying...

**Liesje** · 11-26-2012, 07:44 PM

Good question, hopefully they will elaborate. Personally I would not train a dog like mine for SAR because his prey drive (for actual prey, not necessarily dancing around for toys) is very high *and* I routinely encourage it by allowed him to chase and kill prey and do lure coursing (which we don't train for, we just *do*). I'm sure it could be done because the control is there and if I intended to do SAR I would not have encouraged this from the beginning, but in my opinion is somewhat of a "conflict of interest" especially since I use prey (allowing him to chase and "kill" - for real or catch a lure) as a way for him to de-stress, like if we do a cluster conformation show I'll enter him in a few coursing runs so he can literally cut loose. Lure coursing is one area where I have very intentionally *not* put a lot of control on the dog.

elisabeth_00117 · 11-26-2012, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs.K

Not all teams dismiss SchH dogs.... just saying...

This is where I am confused.

I know Carmen is very respected in our area, and I do respect and admire the work she has done and is continuing to do. So, no one take my inquiries the wrong way please... BUT.. I very recently had an encounter with this - Mrs. K, I explained to you via FB what transpired so you are "in the loop" - so this may seem out of the blue to the rest - but want to understand since i know Carmen has a great influence in this area in many venues.

I know the people who did her evaluation are HIGHLY respected in MANY working venues in this area as well and am SURE she knows them or at least OF them, so this is what is causing the confusion for me.

elisabeth_00117 · 11-26-2012, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liesje

Good question, hopefully they will elaborate. Personally I would not train a dog like mine for SAR because his prey drive (for actual prey, not necessarily dancing around for toys) is very high *and* I routinely encourage it by allowed him to chase and kill prey and do lure coursing (which we don't train for, we just *do*). I'm sure it could be done because the control is there and if I intended to do SAR I would not have encouraged this from the beginning, but in my opinion is somewhat of a "conflict of interest" especially since I use prey (allowing him to chase and "kill" - for real or catch a lure) as a way for him to de-stress, like if we do a cluster conformation show I'll enter him in a few coursing runs so he can literally cut loose. Lure coursing is one area where I have very intentionally *not* put a lot of control on the dog.

This is my thought too...

**jocoyn** · 11-26-2012, 08:14 PM

The interpretation of bitework varies and that is an ongoing very hot discussion. I think it comes down to the individual team or governing agency. Threads almost always fall apart during this discussion and if someone wants to pursue, lets pick up on an existing thread with that topic or start a new one. I think the key thing is to be aware it may be a limitation.

Also accept that teams pay a LOT of money for their liability insurance and anything that can jeapardize it needs to be considered. The LE who deploy us will NOT use a bite trained dog to search for a missing person based on some court cases. [I actually posted about that earlier this year]

Just to let you know though that they know our dogs very well and several of these dogs are tug reward and also have (per the Master Trainer) a considerable amount of fight drive... I used to think you could have too much obedience but now that we have amped up to some stronger dogs from lines bred for police service, wow. You need a lot of obedience to maintain a respect/partner relationship. One change I have seen is an increase by ALL agencies in their obedience requiremens as people move away from pets to serious working line dogs in all breeds.

My own attitude is if you have time be training in a different dog sport why aren't you spending that doing SAR related training? Some things can be related, like agility or obedience. Some folks who may not have a job and have money can pull it off but most of us suffer from having enough time to train in our discipline let alone other sports. THere is no such thing as "good enough" in SAR. Certifications are the beginning point of your training not the ending point.

Ah this was the most recent thread on Schutzhund dogs and SAR
Schutzhund dogs and SAR

elisabeth_00117 · 11-26-2012, 08:18 PM

I forgot about that thread - good link.

carmspack · 11-27-2012, 05:58 PM

first of all " but want to understand since i know Carmen has a great influence " I have ZERO influence but I do have experience. Basically what I am told , I do . I am told what the requirements are and I need to fulfill them or get passed by . Past performance and reputation have no advantage when an individual dog is evaluated . Either he has it or not .
As high level instinctive tracking is extremely important to my lines many of my dogs do end up in some search or detection capacity.
I did ask one of the certifying officers (remember with the RCMP guidelines) about bite training and he was very clear about it , looking at me as if , why are YOU asking me this -- the answer was NO .
I was on the phone this afternoon talking with my western connection , Yeulett , comparing notes on what the different line combinations are excelling at .
Asked her , same answer , no bite work .
But that does not mean that the dogs are placid, docile , dogs. They have high drives and high prey drive , but they must be totally rock solid in their temperament and be very resilient and adaptable and be able to handle conflict and commotion both from team and from handler .

Just like Jocoyn said , there are liability issues , and there is no TIME left to train in anything else , this is a total committment . (so pretty much what Jocoyn said). It is highly unusual to have a dog evaluated in a casual manner , meaning Zefra , because without an operational human team member the dog is of no use .

The link I gave for the Alberta group , that person just returned from evaluating search dogs for a group in West Virginia . This is a serious calling -- life or death -- not pleasant work because the results can be heavy , heart breaking .

One dog per person . In one department that one dog means one dog , so not even a "pet" dog at home .
I (we) found that out how severe they were , when a handler who had one of my dogs , certified and operational , who was getting close to retirement -- annual recertification necessary by the way , a dog can fail at any time and be asked to brush up and come in for retest . If he fails a second time that's it . Anyway the person thought it would be a good idea to get a new candidate started so there would be a seamless re-entry with the new dog . I hand picked a female . She did some trainging on her on and then the trainer /evaluator / certifying officer found out and gave the option of choose one dog -- or you will have no dog and no you on the team. She sent the female back to me and happily she has produced some good service dogs for my program.

elisabeth_00117 · 11-27-2012, 06:20 PM

Carmen - by "influence" I meant has many dogs involved in work in our area. Maybe "influence" was the wrong word to use. Experience, definitely. I am only just getting my feet wet in the pond, while you Carmen have already swam many laps around it. Definitely 2 different view points.

But I will say (and this is not a negative thing) that with continued success comes influence and I am very sure you have some over the venues you work in. That is a GOOD thing if it is being done with thought which I believe it is. So, be proud of that and continue your work!

Zefra was not evaluated in a casual manner - I can give you details if you like but I do not feel comfortable posting them here - it has been quite a.... well... issue for us over the past few months. If you would like the background of why she was evaluated please tell me and I will explain.

All I know, and I will say this, is that the evaluator had full knowledge of Zefra's previous training and still wanted to welcome her to the team. Zefra would not of stayed in my care, that is all I will say on this unless you would like a PM.

I totally agree that a dog who is doing SAR should be totally committed to this venue - please see my original post in this thread - and I agree that there would be no time for anything else if done properly. Totally agree and never said otherwise.

carmspack · 11-27-2012, 06:43 PM

yes I would be interested . If they are looking for a young dog I can recommend a 6 month old who is doing multiple surface tracking . She is not my breeding, in fact happens to be total show lines , but is bred and owned by a person who has handled and bred SAR dogs .

Mrs.K · 11-27-2012, 07:26 PM

talk to elizabeth first. Than you will understand, Carmen. I don't think she has any contact to them.

11-26-2012, 07:44 PM	#42 (permalink)
Liesje Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 16,262	Good question, hopefully they will elaborate. Personally I would not train a dog like mine for SAR because his prey drive (for actual prey, not necessarily dancing around for toys) is very high and I routinely encourage it by allowed him to chase and kill prey and do lure coursing (which we don't train for, we just do). I'm sure it could be done because the control is there and if I intended to do SAR I would not have encouraged this from the beginning, but in my opinion is somewhat of a "conflict of interest" especially since I use prey (allowing him to chase and "kill" - for real or catch a lure) as a way for him to de-stress, like if we do a cluster conformation show I'll enter him in a few coursing runs so he can literally cut loose. Lure coursing is one area where I have very intentionally not put a lot of control on the dog. __________________ Liesje & the K9s Nikon (GSD) U-CH SG Alta-Tollhaus Bono SchH1 KKL T1 FO PA TF-III FDCh-S CL1-R UJJ U-CA HIT TT CGC Coke (All-American) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC, couch warmer extraordinaire Indy (All-American) Blue Horizon's Indigo Girl, flyball star in training Rainbow Bridge Kenya (GSD) U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop CL1-R CL1-F RA HIT TDI TT CGC vom Blauen Horizont / Blue Horizon GSDs

11-26-2012, 08:14 PM	#45 (permalink)
jocoyn Zombie Queen Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 11,866	The interpretation of bitework varies and that is an ongoing very hot discussion. I think it comes down to the individual team or governing agency. Threads almost always fall apart during this discussion and if someone wants to pursue, lets pick up on an existing thread with that topic or start a new one. I think the key thing is to be aware it may be a limitation. Also accept that teams pay a LOT of money for their liability insurance and anything that can jeapardize it needs to be considered. The LE who deploy us will NOT use a bite trained dog to search for a missing person based on some court cases. [I actually posted about that earlier this year] Just to let you know though that they know our dogs very well and several of these dogs are tug reward and also have (per the Master Trainer) a considerable amount of fight drive... I used to think you could have too much obedience but now that we have amped up to some stronger dogs from lines bred for police service, wow. You need a lot of obedience to maintain a respect/partner relationship. One change I have seen is an increase by ALL agencies in their obedience requiremens as people move away from pets to serious working line dogs in all breeds. My own attitude is if you have time be training in a different dog sport why aren't you spending that doing SAR related training? Some things can be related, like agility or obedience. Some folks who may not have a job and have money can pull it off but most of us suffer from having enough time to train in our discipline let alone other sports. THere is no such thing as "good enough" in SAR. Certifications are the beginning point of your training not the ending point. Ah this was the most recent thread on Schutzhund dogs and SAR Schutzhund dogs and SAR __________________ Nancy www.scsarda.org Beau -NAPWDA Certified Cadaver Dog Waiting at the Bridge (italics=GSDs) (hemangiosarcoma=blue):Grim , Cyra, Toby, Rainbow, Linus, Oscar, Arlo & Waggles Last edited by jocoyn; 11-26-2012 at 09:23 PM.

11-26-2012, 08:18 PM	#46 (permalink)
elisabeth_00117 Crowned Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Waterloo, Ontario Posts: 8,329	I forgot about that thread - good link. __________________ Battleborn Hundesport K-W German Shepherd Club

11-27-2012, 06:20 PM	#48 (permalink)
elisabeth_00117 Crowned Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Waterloo, Ontario Posts: 8,329	Carmen - by "influence" I meant has many dogs involved in work in our area. Maybe "influence" was the wrong word to use. Experience, definitely. I am only just getting my feet wet in the pond, while you Carmen have already swam many laps around it. Definitely 2 different view points. But I will say (and this is not a negative thing) that with continued success comes influence and I am very sure you have some over the venues you work in. That is a GOOD thing if it is being done with thought which I believe it is. So, be proud of that and continue your work! Zefra was not evaluated in a casual manner - I can give you details if you like but I do not feel comfortable posting them here - it has been quite a.... well... issue for us over the past few months. If you would like the background of why she was evaluated please tell me and I will explain. All I know, and I will say this, is that the evaluator had full knowledge of Zefra's previous training and still wanted to welcome her to the team. Zefra would not of stayed in my care, that is all I will say on this unless you would like a PM. I totally agree that a dog who is doing SAR should be totally committed to this venue - please see my original post in this thread - and I agree that there would be no time for anything else if done properly. Totally agree and never said otherwise. __________________ Battleborn Hundesport K-W German Shepherd Club

11-27-2012, 05:58 PM	#47 (permalink)
carmspack Crowned Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: ontario - Posts: 5,548	first of all " but want to understand since i know Carmen has a great influence " I have ZERO influence but I do have experience. Basically what I am told , I do . I am told what the requirements are and I need to fulfill them or get passed by . Past performance and reputation have no advantage when an individual dog is evaluated . Either he has it or not . As high level instinctive tracking is extremely important to my lines many of my dogs do end up in some search or detection capacity. I did ask one of the certifying officers (remember with the RCMP guidelines) about bite training and he was very clear about it , looking at me as if , why are YOU asking me this -- the answer was NO . I was on the phone this afternoon talking with my western connection , Yeulett , comparing notes on what the different line combinations are excelling at . Asked her , same answer , no bite work . But that does not mean that the dogs are placid, docile , dogs. They have high drives and high prey drive , but they must be totally rock solid in their temperament and be very resilient and adaptable and be able to handle conflict and commotion both from team and from handler . Just like Jocoyn said , there are liability issues , and there is no TIME left to train in anything else , this is a total committment . (so pretty much what Jocoyn said). It is highly unusual to have a dog evaluated in a casual manner , meaning Zefra , because without an operational human team member the dog is of no use . The link I gave for the Alberta group , that person just returned from evaluating search dogs for a group in West Virginia . This is a serious calling -- life or death -- not pleasant work because the results can be heavy , heart breaking . One dog per person . In one department that one dog means one dog , so not even a "pet" dog at home . I (we) found that out how severe they were , when a handler who had one of my dogs , certified and operational , who was getting close to retirement -- annual recertification necessary by the way , a dog can fail at any time and be asked to brush up and come in for retest . If he fails a second time that's it . Anyway the person thought it would be a good idea to get a new candidate started so there would be a seamless re-entry with the new dog . I hand picked a female . She did some trainging on her on and then the trainer /evaluator / certifying officer found out and gave the option of choose one dog -- or you will have no dog and no you on the team. She sent the female back to me and happily she has produced some good service dogs for my program.

11-27-2012, 06:43 PM	#49 (permalink)
carmspack Crowned Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: ontario - Posts: 5,548	yes I would be interested . If they are looking for a young dog I can recommend a 6 month old who is doing multiple surface tracking . She is not my breeding, in fact happens to be total show lines , but is bred and owned by a person who has handled and bred SAR dogs .

11-27-2012, 07:26 PM	#50 (permalink)
Mrs.K Crowned Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,495	talk to elizabeth first. Than you will understand, Carmen. I don't think she has any contact to them.

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