Intelligent Dis-Obedience

Mrs.K · 04-24-2011, 07:27 AM

I now know what is ment with intelligent dis-obedience.

Holy cow were we amazed yesterday. We are doing SAR since January. A lot of training has been canceled because of the snow, so all in all, we are doing it for two months. She does the swissies perfect and I never stopped doing them. She needed one pop-up to understand what we wanted from her. She's done three pop-up sets (three repetition is one set).

To make it more interesting for her, my friend hid underneath a camo blanket and went a little further out in the woods. Within a minute she had her. She rang the radio and I was like "Ich fasses net (I can't believe it) Holy Cow... she's got her already"

Indra came back, indicated and lead me back. I followed her, she WAITED for me, once I catched up, she started running again, then she stopped, looked at me. I did NOT NOTICE the trail right behind her. It was a small trail and she wanted me to follow her that trail but I didn't realize it because I misread her and insisted of going straight.
"Show me!" I said, and she ran along straight, going around in a circle and lead me back to my friend.
My friend then said, "She was coming through here" and she pointed to the trail where Indra had stopped. And that is when it hit me. My dog wanted me to follow her that trail and I couldn't read her at that very moment.

I read about intelligent disobedience and yesterday, I first-hand experienced it. I was told that she could easily pass the 5 Acres Test by now, however I do not want to do the mistake a couple of other Handlers do, I don't want to move to fast and screw everything up we've worked for so hard.

I am just amazed of how fast she's been learning and I learned that I have to learn on how to read her in the field. I did not know what she wanted from me at that moment but when my friend said, "She came through there." I realized "THAT is what everybody has been talking about."

Next month we are going to take the CGC and next week I am doing my first test towards our first certification.

So what do you think. When would yo take the 5 Acres Test?

**jocoyn** · 04-24-2011, 07:37 AM

I do not believe that is intellegent disobedience. Intellegent disobedience would be if you called her off of the trail, started walking back, and she refused to comply. She was just doing what she was trained to do using everything in her toolkit which is get you to the victim. You veer off path she does a course correction.

I would try the 5 acre test. I assume that is not yet an operational level but a test to see if the peices are together. It will give you objective insight about how the peices are coming together. I would not however take it until you no longer have to do pop ups or run aways.

Actually, once she knows the game, those should be faded and only brought back on an ocassional "freebie" kind of day. You also need to work a LOT of problems where the location of the victim is completely blind to you and start working scenarios where scent does crazy things (get out syrotouk and set up scenarios where you and the dog have to work them out). Also need to work out an aged scent pool as it is very different. Summer will provide you with some challenging scentwork scenarios.

------------

I think this is more along the lines of that. My dog is trained to sit and stay with source and not move. We do a search where he hits odor (very large training source) from a great distance (normally cadave searches you see the dog most of the time as they are less scent unless it is a whole body) leaves me and I start looking for him. He leaves source (disobedient to his training) finds me, looks at me, and takes me back. Now he was disobedient but he knew that he had to get me to source for his reward. So I learned - I have to up my speed, reinforce more "out of sight' duration on the command, maybe stick an Astro on him (definitely a bell) . I did not fault him for breaking a command because he was using info in his doggie brain to figure out plan B to get me to source.

Mrs.K · 04-24-2011, 07:47 AM

Quote:

I do not believe that is intellegent disobedience. Intellegent disobedience would be if you called her off of the trail, started walking back, and she refused to comply. She was just doing what she was trained to do using everything in her toolkit which is get you to the victim. You veer off path she does a course correction.

Thank yo for clarifying. I guess I misunderstood what it really means.

So what she did, is what she is supposed to do at all times, right? And definitely a good thing.

Quote:

I would try the 5 acre test. I assume that is not yet an operational level but a test to see if the peices are together. It will give you objective insight about how the peices are coming together. I would not however take it until you no longer have to do pop ups or run aways.

Actually, once she knows the game, those should be faded and only brought back on an ocassional "freebie" kind of day. You also need to work a LOT of problems where the location of the victim is completely blind to you and start working scenarios where scent does crazy things (get out syrotouk and set up scenarios where you and the dog have to work them out). Also need to work out an aged scent pool as it is very different. Summer will provide you with some challenging scentwork scenarios.

They are already fading. She knows the game and she is using her nose. The location was completely blind. We were outside the woods, we had absolutely no idea where she went and she was underneath a camo blanket on top of that.

Once Indra had her, she rang the radio. I have the video, will upload it in a second.
I do have a to do a couple of tests as a requirement before I can do the 5 Acre. I am doing them next week. I also need the CGC on her as a requirement.

**jocoyn** · 04-24-2011, 07:50 AM

Definitely a very good thing**. While you were posting, I added (what I think, others may correct) is an example.

**at some point you will reinforce that by actually walking the wrong way when she indicates but not now. Videos are nice. Someone else is taking them, I presume? Not you while you are working the dog.

Mrs.K · 04-24-2011, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jocoyn

Definitely a very good thing**. While you were posting, I added (what I think, others may correct) is an example.

**at some point you will reinforce that by actually walking the wrong way when she indicates but not now. Videos are nice. Someone else is taking them, I presume? Not you while you are working the dog.

Yeah, my fellow German Team Mate took the video, her daughter went hiding.
We were both completely amazed and absolutely speechless. I knew she was going to make the find, however, we are still amazed how fast she's learning. Especially me. She is my very first search dog and she's like a once in a lifetime dog and I am lucky to have her as my first dog.

**jocoyn** · 04-24-2011, 08:08 AM

You will always be lagging her. NOw since she is a smart dog and a female. Watch out she may outsmart you and try to change the game so keep it interesting!

Mrs.K · 04-24-2011, 08:08 AM

Oh, and it also shows that she has no trouble going out of sight and I completely trust her. So the Obedience does in no way ruin her ranging. We've done quite some work yesterday and the "Blind Search" (is that how you call it) was the last we did.

For the first time I finally had the feeling that she was like "**** Girl, I was waiting for that kind of training, now let's do some more." but I didn't want to overdo it.

Mrs.K · 04-24-2011, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jocoyn

You will always be lagging her. NOw since she is a smart dog and a female. Watch out she may outsmart you and try to change the game so keep it interesting!

Yeah, that is one thing I am worried about, it is why we actually moved ahead and did it. You can tell when she gets bored.

Here is the video

YouTube - Indra Blind Search

**jocoyn** · 04-24-2011, 08:16 AM

Ok she was on scent which is not the same as ranging out and she was following a trail (not about the physical trail, but a scent trail)) - though she probably does not need to range out of scent unless she hits scent.

I recommend doing some setups where your victim comes in from another area and does not leave a scent trail. Get them into the area in such a way that the dog does not cross their footfall path at any point in time during the search.

Mrs.K · 04-24-2011, 08:20 AM

So is that a good thing, that she was on scent?

Yes, your dog seems to be doing well.

What I am saying though is real world air scent search work the dog will not have a scent trail to follow but will have to work a scent pool.

I am going to guess that victim just went out there and you worked it quickly so their scent would be dispersed in a "tunnel" as it work, so even though the dog is not following ground scent it is following a tunnle of scent they would not have available to them during the real thing.

A trailing dog would, hopefully be on the trail and you will be sent to "clear' other areas or jump ahead.

So you need to look at set ups where the dog cannot trail to the victim by taking the victim in from another direction.

04-24-2011, 07:27 AM	#1 (permalink)
Mrs.K Crowned Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 6,381	Intelligent Dis-Obedience I now know what is ment with intelligent dis-obedience. Holy cow were we amazed yesterday. We are doing SAR since January. A lot of training has been canceled because of the snow, so all in all, we are doing it for two months. She does the swissies perfect and I never stopped doing them. She needed one pop-up to understand what we wanted from her. She's done three pop-up sets (three repetition is one set). To make it more interesting for her, my friend hid underneath a camo blanket and went a little further out in the woods. Within a minute she had her. She rang the radio and I was like "Ich fasses net (I can't believe it) Holy Cow... she's got her already" Indra came back, indicated and lead me back. I followed her, she WAITED for me, once I catched up, she started running again, then she stopped, looked at me. I did NOT NOTICE the trail right behind her. It was a small trail and she wanted me to follow her that trail but I didn't realize it because I misread her and insisted of going straight. "Show me!" I said, and she ran along straight, going around in a circle and lead me back to my friend. My friend then said, "She was coming through here" and she pointed to the trail where Indra had stopped. And that is when it hit me. My dog wanted me to follow her that trail and I couldn't read her at that very moment. I read about intelligent disobedience and yesterday, I first-hand experienced it. I was told that she could easily pass the 5 Acres Test by now, however I do not want to do the mistake a couple of other Handlers do, I don't want to move to fast and screw everything up we've worked for so hard. I am just amazed of how fast she's been learning and I learned that I have to learn on how to read her in the field. I did not know what she wanted from me at that moment but when my friend said, "She came through there." I realized "THAT is what everybody has been talking about." Next month we are going to take the CGC and next week I am doing my first test towards our first certification. So what do you think. When would yo take the 5 Acres Test? Last edited by Mrs.K; 04-24-2011 at 07:31 AM.

04-24-2011, 07:37 AM	#2 (permalink)
jocoyn Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 8,052	I do not believe that is intellegent disobedience. Intellegent disobedience would be if you called her off of the trail, started walking back, and she refused to comply. She was just doing what she was trained to do using everything in her toolkit which is get you to the victim. You veer off path she does a course correction. I would try the 5 acre test. I assume that is not yet an operational level but a test to see if the peices are together. It will give you objective insight about how the peices are coming together. I would not however take it until you no longer have to do pop ups or run aways. Actually, once she knows the game, those should be faded and only brought back on an ocassional "freebie" kind of day. You also need to work a LOT of problems where the location of the victim is completely blind to you and start working scenarios where scent does crazy things (get out syrotouk and set up scenarios where you and the dog have to work them out). Also need to work out an aged scent pool as it is very different. Summer will provide you with some challenging scentwork scenarios. ------------ I think this is more along the lines of that. My dog is trained to sit and stay with source and not move. We do a search where he hits odor (very large training source) from a great distance (normally cadave searches you see the dog most of the time as they are less scent unless it is a whole body) leaves me and I start looking for him. He leaves source (disobedient to his training) finds me, looks at me, and takes me back. Now he was disobedient but he knew that he had to get me to source for his reward. So I learned - I have to up my speed, reinforce more "out of sight' duration on the command, maybe stick an Astro on him (definitely a bell) . I did not fault him for breaking a command because he was using info in his doggie brain to figure out plan B to get me to source. __________________ Nancy www.scsarda.org Grim (Grimmy Bear) & Beau (Bo-dee man) Waiting at the Bridge: Cyra, Toby, Rainbow, Linus, Oscar, Arlo & Waggles Last edited by jocoyn; 04-24-2011 at 07:58 AM.

04-24-2011, 07:50 AM	#4 (permalink)
jocoyn Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 8,052	Definitely a very good thing. While you were posting, I added (what I think, others may correct) is an example. at some point you will reinforce that by actually walking the wrong way when she indicates but not now. Videos are nice. Someone else is taking them, I presume? Not you while you are working the dog. __________________ Nancy www.scsarda.org Grim (Grimmy Bear) & Beau (Bo-dee man) Waiting at the Bridge: Cyra, Toby, Rainbow, Linus, Oscar, Arlo & Waggles

04-24-2011, 08:08 AM	#6 (permalink)
jocoyn Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 8,052	You will always be lagging her. NOw since she is a smart dog and a female. Watch out she may outsmart you and try to change the game so keep it interesting! __________________ Nancy www.scsarda.org Grim (Grimmy Bear) & Beau (Bo-dee man) Waiting at the Bridge: Cyra, Toby, Rainbow, Linus, Oscar, Arlo & Waggles

04-24-2011, 08:16 AM	#9 (permalink)
jocoyn Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 8,052	Ok she was on scent which is not the same as ranging out and she was following a trail (not about the physical trail, but a scent trail)) - though she probably does not need to range out of scent unless she hits scent. I recommend doing some setups where your victim comes in from another area and does not leave a scent trail. Get them into the area in such a way that the dog does not cross their footfall path at any point in time during the search. __________________ Nancy www.scsarda.org Grim (Grimmy Bear) & Beau (Bo-dee man) Waiting at the Bridge: Cyra, Toby, Rainbow, Linus, Oscar, Arlo & Waggles

04-24-2011, 08:08 AM	#7 (permalink)
Mrs.K Crowned Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 6,381	Oh, and it also shows that she has no trouble going out of sight and I completely trust her. So the Obedience does in no way ruin her ranging. We've done quite some work yesterday and the "Blind Search" (is that how you call it) was the last we did. For the first time I finally had the feeling that she was like "**** Girl, I was waiting for that kind of training, now let's do some more." but I didn't want to overdo it.

04-24-2011, 08:20 AM	#10 (permalink)
Mrs.K Crowned Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 6,381	So is that a good thing, that she was on scent? Yes, your dog seems to be doing well. What I am saying though is real world air scent search work the dog will not have a scent trail to follow but will have to work a scent pool. I am going to guess that victim just went out there and you worked it quickly so their scent would be dispersed in a "tunnel" as it work, so even though the dog is not following ground scent it is following a tunnle of scent they would not have available to them during the real thing. A trailing dog would, hopefully be on the trail and you will be sent to "clear' other areas or jump ahead. So you need to look at set ups where the dog cannot trail to the victim by taking the victim in from another direction. Last edited by jocoyn; 04-24-2011 at 08:23 AM.

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