Pack drive?

[Kava3]

This is a SAR/Obedience question.
Okay so everyone is maybe a little tired of my questions but I'm going to put this out there. My boy is has an abnormally independant nature. He has very high drives (prey, food, hunt, play) which helps some, but his pack drive is not as strong as all of his other drives. He is just as content being off on his own as he is interacting. It can make obedience training more difficult at times (if I don't have treats or a toy). Being new to SAR- you guys have become a primary resource for me. I may feel like an idiot- but I guess I'm at least an idiot asking questions LOL!!!

Is there any way to build the pack drive?

[jocoyn]

Is the dog's independence hampering its abiity to work? Does it come back to alert you properly? You don't want a velcro dog doing wilderness SAR.

If his drives are good then obedience training should not be an issue and I would maybe put more emphasis on that.

What does your team think? Hard to say without actually seeing the dog.

[ladylaw203]

Originally Posted by Kava3

This is a SAR/Obedience question.
Okay so everyone is maybe a little tired of my questions but I'm going to put this out there. My boy is has an abnormally independant nature. He has very high drives (prey, food, hunt, play) which helps some, but his pack drive is not as strong as all of his other drives. He is just as content being off on his own as he is interacting. It can make obedience training more difficult at times (if I don't have treats or a toy). Being new to SAR- you guys have become a primary resource for me. I may feel like an idiot- but I guess I'm at least an idiot asking questions LOL!!!

Is there any way to build the pack drive?

Why? If the dog has drive for a toy, that is what we use for training. We buy dogs with that drive. Once the dog is totally trained for obedience motivationally, he will be solid. Independence is a necessity for scent work or you have a handler dependent dog

[jocoyn]

Originally Posted by ladylaw203

Why? If the dog has drive for a toy, that is what we use for training. We buy dogs with that drive. Once the dog is totally trained for obedience motivationally, he will be solid. Independence is a necessity for scent work or you have a handler dependent dog

Totally agree - as long as the dog pays attention to you and is under your control ...

There are too many dogs that simply won't leave their handler - and the handler has to cover way too much ground to ensure the dog has covered the area. It is also nice to have a dog blow you off if you are being stupid.

It is great to have a dog where you can just about open up a lawn chair, pop open a beer, and say "let me know when you're done" -- Just kidding but you get the idea.....

[ladylaw203]

Originally Posted by jocoyn

Totally agree - as long as the dog pays attention to you and is under your control ...

There are too many dogs that simply won't leave their handler - and the handler has to cover way too much ground to ensure the dog has covered the area. It is also nice to have a dog blow you off if you are being stupid.

It is great to have a dog where you can just about open up a lawn chair, pop open a beer, and say "let me know when you're done" -- Just kidding but you get the idea.....

Motivational training does not create a handler dependent dog. If that were true, nobody could work a duck dog or participate in hunt tests. I put directionals on my dog via the same method as one does for hunt tests. My dogs work at a distance and follow voice and hand signals for the directionals. Again, the training is motivational utilizing a toy of some sort. My labs work for a bumper. Very easy to train actually, just time consuming. The handler dependent dog is caused by being on leash and literally dragging the dog to an aid and solicting the final response. Many folks train that way and wind up with a dog that does not know how to work on his own, and one that is pattern trained,handler dependent.

[Kava3]

I love that Kaio is so independant when we search. His ranging is amazing and he is solid and confident in his independance- I have no want or need to change that.
I think perhaps I haven't phrased this right.
With all other drives there is an on/off switch to an extent. I have learned to work my dog in drive and how to turn those drives off. For instance we rely on our dog's prey drive and hunt drive to search for exteneded periods of time, but we don't want them chasing the cats in the house, right? Same drives- under control. I am wondring if pack drive works the same way. If, presumeably all drives can be focused and controled then the pack drive should be no different, yet I have not been able to engage that drive and work within it. My dog wants to work with his toy, in the instance that I do not have a toy (the CGC is a requirement for our team) then there has to be a secondary drive that I can work my dog in to increase that focus and willingness. He does great when I have a toy. So is there any way that I can build that drive in a controllable manner. I don't want my dog to not range when searching, but I want him to WANT to stick close to me outside of that. Was that better? Or did I just manage to confuse people?
I really am not very good at trying to put into words what is flying around in my head.
Thank you Everyone!!

[ladylaw203]

Originally Posted by Kava3

My dog wants to work with his toy, in the instance that I do not have a toy (the CGC is a requirement for our team) then there has to be a secondary drive that I can work my dog in to increase that focus and willingness. He does great when I have a toy. So is there any way that I can build that drive in a controllable manner. I don't want my dog to not range when searching, but I want him to WANT to stick close to me outside of that. Was that better? Or did I just manage to confuse people?

Again, your dog is doing great if he is working for the toy. THis is the solid foundation. Watch some video of sport folks working their dogs in obedience. We position our hands in a manner that makes the dog think we have the ball when we do not. The dog is always focused on the posibility that we have the toy. There is no secondary drive that gives that type of focus. The dog will obey commands based on the motivational training ultimately with or without the toy