German Shepherds Forum banner

Fake Euro Titles

23K views 222 replies 37 participants last post by  carmspack 
#1 ·
Since people where asking..


When I hear "breeder is sending dog to Germany for titles" I think fake title.


Why?
1. There are plenty of trainers here that title dogs
2. The cost of simply shipping the dog to and from Germany is practically the same as what some trainers here charge for the titling
3. Midnight trials and interpretive judging/helper work are a well known Euro pass time in the SL world
4. The above is not so readily found in North America...hence why you have to ship your ****ter to Germany for that title


Case in point ... apparently these all had titles! Must have been an off day.







Don't get your panties in a bunch kids many of the dogs in the video could be titled with training and a ton of prep work. Whether they should be breeding is another topic all together.


The important thing is everyone had fun out there....:grin2:
 
See less See more
#2 ·
That was sad.
That one dog cowering and then slinking to it's handler. That was painful to watch.
If your dog is that devastated you have either chosen the wrong dog or you seriously screwed up training.
Aside from the obviously lack of training a couple of those dogs were seriously frightened. And the one dog looked like it tried to go for the helpers face.
In your opinion could any of those dogs be successful?
 
#7 ·
I think one also has to be flexible. In other words you might like a particular dog sport but your dog is just not cut out for that. Well that is the chance you take when you buy a puppy. So if your dog isn't enjoying that sport - you should be flexible to switch to another sport that your dog enjoys. You can't force a dog to enjoy a sport and you won't be successful by insisting.


I learned this with horses. I bought a basically untrained horse - she was off the track and then used as a brood mare before I purchased her. I wanted to do hunters but she really hated it. I switched over to Dressage - something I wasn't particularly interested in and she absolutely loved it! Then I bred her years later and the filly totally enjoyed dressage but I was willing to switch to another discipline if needed. You always hear happy wife - happy life - well the same applies to horses - keep them happy and you are less apt to end up with a sour horse with a negative attitude towards work :)
 
#8 ·
To many in showlines, the IPO requirement is a nuisance and the only activity that "matters" is show placements. All they need is an IPO1 to be bred - in Germany you can koer as long as you get a 70-70-80, here you can breed without a koer so 70-70-70 will put the female into the whelping box. And with many clubs and judges, that 70-70-70 is not so hard to come by....problem is that people see what they want to see and justify and excuse what should be unacceptable behaviors.


I disagree that there are "many places" here to send a dog for training/titles....not so.....many showline females go to Germany, are shown a few times, rushed through a title, koer classed, bred to a big name male and brought home to a live of breeding. The opportunities for this in Germany are numerous....most serious show people here have a relationship with a breeder in Germany who does or oversees this process for them...a male might be campaigned over there and shown at the Sieger show to come home with credentials making him more attractive for stud or with exposure beneficial for his show career here under SV judges. The value of and the demand for the offspring of a showline dog increases significantly with a good show record in Germany.


Lee
 
#9 ·
Interesting video.....I assumed there would be some fails...

I have a stupid question.......it seemed most every dog when running in for the bite....would raise its ears...from a lowered position..... as it neared the decoy ........is this a telltale of the dog becoming indecisive?


SuperG
 
#11 ·
I've seen a trial here that wasn't much better under an SV judge. The helper baited the dogs into the blind, called them in on the escape and so on. Tracking was done standing basically on top of the dog. Even the competitors came off the field saying "well we didn't pass today". Then they ALL received "V" rated scores. Yes this is a true story that I witnessed first hand.
 
#12 ·
The wife of a well respected gsd judge told me the following just last week.
No. The buying of wins and money to judges, is unique to the German Sieger show. It is the most widely know, least talked about scandal in the world. It is also widely known that the German Sieger and Siegerin are pre ordained, no surprises. Our Nationals at least is still widely based on judging. Not that there isn't a lot of politics, b/c there is. But that is with any show, any venue. It doesn't matter if you show dogs, cats, birds or even cars. Politics happen.
 
#18 ·
It is also widely known that the German Sieger and Siegerin are pre ordained, no surprises.

Actually it has always been that way. The dogs are heavily campaigned, their offspring heavily scrutinized and choices made on what changes the SV is wanting to make in the breed. It is far more than just a dog show as seen in the AKC world.

I don't condone what the Sieger show has become. These dogs were supposed to be the best of the best, but politics has always influenced the winners.
 
#13 ·
My completely inexpert opinion (I don't do ipo), but that looked like a bunch of scared dogs (actually running away) with problems controlling their hind-quarters (wiping out on turns, etc.).
Other thing I noticed, more disturbing to me, because, hey, if someone wants a show dog fine, so they don't like doing protection work, fine, BUT did these dogs not also look scared of their handlers?
I've always enjoyed watching dogs do protection work, police trials, schutz, a few times in person, or on video. The dogs always looked 'in' to it. And when they were with their handlers, they look like magic is falling from the sky above the handlers head, and they look excited to do their thing, very much a joy to watch--this was not.
 
#14 ·
'Joy in the work', that's how they're supposed to look. IPO should be all about the bond between dog and handler as much as a test of the dog's skills in tracking, obedience and protection. The judge is supposed to be looking for courage, hardness and fighting instinct. That's how we preserve the character of the breed.
 
#17 ·
I have seen obedience routines where the dog forges, checks himself back flinching in anticipation of a leash correction. Pretty sure that was wgsl dogs too.

Its interesting because my female loves getting hit when you are playing with her. You should see the way she plays with my husband, mid tug he is slapping her around and she just eats it up, bites harder. I swear she enjoys a game of tug better if he slaps her around a little. He is not abusing her lol, I don't know if I am describing it properly but I can guarantee if some guy raised a rubber stick over his head she would be like "come on, i dare you to HIT me!!!" But this is the same dog that I knocked senseless with that frozen toy by accident when she was a year old and that didnt even deter her from wanting to play right then even though I really thought I must have knocked all her teeth out, she even looked dazed, but was still begging me to throw it.
 
#19 ·
Your post makes me laugh and feel better about drilling my dog with the tennis ball.....I give it a ride with a golf club....1 wood...she's about 30 feet from me when I drive the tennis ball.....on occasion there's an errant shot that comes to close to her ...but she's charging at it...making a play on it like a goalie.....BOOM....she gets drilled....and as you say...she comes back instantly begging for more.

SuperG
 
#20 ·
Thanks for sharing these videos, even if they were painful to watch, particularly as someone who owns and loves the look of WGSL dogs. I'm sure some of these dogs (and their offspring) make good pets, but they simply don't belong on the schutzhund field. Honestly, just watching them heel with their owners and it was obvious that they were mediocre sports dogs. Zero focus. Zero drive. They basically looked like Golden Retrievers who had been stuck in a GSD suite.
 
#22 ·
Meh, most of those dogs are happy in the work, they're just afraid of the stick. They aren't prancy but it has a lot to do with the conformation. It's bad training in any dog that bites but won't let go or pecks and nerve issue in any that comes off or fears the stick.

Even many of the ones that are afraid of stick pressure are intrigued enough to stick around. Reminds me of when a dog finds a snake and isn't sure how to deal with it so they Circle around
 
#37 ·
Meh, most of those dogs are happy in the work, they're just afraid of the stick. They aren't prancy but it has a lot to do with the conformation. It's bad training in any dog that bites but won't let go or pecks and nerve issue in any that comes off or fears the stick.

Even many of the ones that are afraid of stick pressure are intrigued enough to stick around. Reminds me of when a dog finds a snake and isn't sure how to deal with it so they Circle around
most likely the bolded in our case or at least something I should have dealt with differently from the get go. No problems with my other 3, just her.
 
#24 ·
I would be interested in knowing how many dogs were tested that day, if they were all on the same day, maybe that weekend. Whatever. Because, yes, you probably will have some bloopers, but that wasn't all the dogs, just all the dogs that failed miserably. Was that a dozen out of 100 or a dozen out of a thousand. From my German friend, it isn't abnormal to have classes of 600 dogs, where here we are lucky to have 6 dogs in a class.
 
#25 ·
Can someone tell me in that one exercise where the guy pops out of the blind and the dog runs in to bite: are they supposed to hang on until outed or retrieved by the handler or are they supposed to out when he stops moving?

I couldnt hear commands anyway because I watched it with no sound since my dog gets all riled up when he hears dogs barking on video and he was sleeping after tracking and I didn't want to wake him.
 
#27 ·
so , if a dog , in the routine , leaves the ring and ends up in the midst of the crowd -- (not fear, not aggressive) -- what should happen ?

the judge would ? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx .what?

like mycobraracr -- several consecutive trials recently each one having --- performances that everyone said NQ and should have been . One had a do a dog that was like the same ends of a magnet - invisible force which kept him from getting close to the decoy . When he finally did he was stretched out , just the frontal teeth and chewy, like social grooming --- and the dog got pronounced ,.
 
#29 ·
Sending a dog away to get titled, reminds me of the guys who stop on the side of the road and cut the head/ rack off a roadkill deer and have it mounted. Want the trophy / bragging but no work put in. The handler and dogs had none of the bond needed to keep the dog engaged. The dogs had no desire to work for them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: astrovan2487
#30 ·
Sending a dog away to get titled, reminds me of the guys who stop on the side of the road and cut the head/ rack off a roadkill deer and have it mounted. Want the trophy / bragging but no work put in. The handler and dogs had none of the bond needed to keep the dog engaged. The dogs had no desire to work for them.
A good friend of mine and a breeder told me once, what you can do with your dogs is not so important as what others can do with your dogs. Sure the dogs know and trust me, of course they will let me put meds into a painful ear, dress a wound, give a pill, saw away at their ear mats. Of course I can take them to class and they will be fine. But how does a pet person do with them.

Show people rarely show their own dogs in the conformation ring. It is a competition and professional handlers know how to work the ring to their advantage. They take the dog for a number of months and show the dog. That's why that woman in Florida had all those dogs in her vehicle that died. She was a professional handler, she got in late, left the dogs in the van and went to sleep. By the time she woke up, the dogs were dead. Evenso, often times show people go to the show to see their dog be shown, but the dog lives with the handler. And sometimes, the owner brings the dog to the show and the handler works the dog in the ring. But an owner, even if they want to show themselves, only has so many years to do so. At some point, they won't be able to run around the ring and show the dog to the level of the dog. They will detract from the dog and it will cost them points.

Sending a dog to a training facility to be trained is something we generally preach against. But it makes sense for some people. I had a pup with an 80 year old guy. He paid for training and the dog was trained to be a service dog for him, by then he was wheel chair bound. People will send a dog to be trained. It isn't uncommon. They will go on vacation, the dog to the trainers. The dog is boarded and trained -- win-win.

There may be some contempt for the necessity of IPO titles for breeding, by people of showline dogs. Our dogs are capable, but that is not what we are aiming for. So, send the dog off to be titled. If someone other than the owner can train the dog to the level of being titled within a couple of months and get her titled, and sent back, then it says something about her character. You do not need to be familiar with IPO to own a titled dog. It doesn't mean the title was fake, it just means that you were not the one that trained and titled the dog. You are busy with other dogs.
 
#32 ·
Well, as for sending dogs off to get titled. I don't know how much I believe those. A friend of mine couldn't work her own dogs at one point so sent one to Germany to get titled. It came back three months later with an IPO3. Possible? Maybe, but highly unlikely even though it's a nice dog. She didn't believe it either and ended up putting an IPO3 on it herself. In fairness of accuracy, I did not get this info directly from her, but her best friend who I'm also really good friends with.
 
#35 ·
But these dogs can't go off for 2 months to be trained/titled
It is a journey....not a sprint. But sure, it is doable. Shaky foundation doesn't hold up in the long run, though.
 
#36 ·
It is a journey....not a sprint. But sure, it is doable. Shaky foundation doesn't hold up in the long run, though.
Everyone is different. I don't understand why people have to rush to prong collars and e-collars. It's a journey, but everyone is in such a hurry. Everyone is different. You want to be there every step of that title, another person may want a well-trained dog, and is ok with skipping portions of it. They have the money, do it. At the end of the day, the dog is a dog. The dog will be fine, if the temperament is good.
 
#41 ·


These are the top dogs. Some are OK and at least look like they want to be there.
 
#47 ·
It's all about the money!

I've seen several dogs that have been sent over seas for titles and the dogs know jack! Theirs names maybe?!
 
  • Like
Reactions: astrovan2487
#50 ·
It's in Atlanta right. A person can rent a cabin 45 minutes north of Atlanta that will allow dogs. Then drive down for the day then return back to the cabin afterwards. Unfortunately we have already made our the plans to go down to GA the last week of June or I would have loved to go watch it, if only for a day.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top