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Old 05-21-2014, 06:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
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I admit to not knowing much about table training , so , inspired by this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/452162-dogs-nerves.html

went on a discovery route.
my experience with a table was for teaching a dog "positions" so that the dog didn't creep forward .

I can see the benefits of the round table for prey agitation , handler present - nothing worse for the decoy than to have some handler who doesn't post , who keeps drifting closer and closer .

Here is what we have , Gene England who is credited with developing this as a training aide Building a bond - Bowling Green Daily News: Local News

then this dog being worked , clearly overwrought . What happened prior to the tape . Was the decoy good . Was it necessary to prolong the dogs distress . Could the decoy properly read the dog . Should the decoy have given the dog some power over the situation by moving back ? Should the chain have been longer to allow the dog to move forward more ? Was the dogs action training failures, genetics , a mix of both?
Why select this tape to show a dog as strong -- once again down to reading and understanding a dog.
http://databasepedigree.com/videos/510/bruno-vom-wallensener-hof

My concern , as stated in the England link is that every one is sort of inventing their own versions of tables and unskilled weakend warrior type (my words) helpers are mashing away at dogs without understanding or reading them. (I'll have to iron this thought out later). In short , good decoys are hard to find .


Hunter's contribution , same thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ2NYQkGG_M

in this set up , the dog has support of handler, is given permission to get into fight , which he enjoys , and is not stressed by , and you see the progression of increased confidence in power and fight with each session.

I would be interested in hearing thoughts on this.
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Old 05-21-2014, 06:39 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The round table is for positions. The square is not. It's for bringing out aggression/defense, or teaching turn on/turn off.

Tables, and particularly the square table, are probably used incorrectly more often than not. In extremely cautious with whom I do table work with
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Old 05-21-2014, 06:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hi Carmen. Let me say I have never used a table" but I have trained protection dogs" in the old days they would try out a dog to work defensive" and aggressive drive if someone doesn't know what they are doing they can break or make a good fearful like the video! Done right with a good dog like hunters" wow! Most important things to train in protection! Good dog! Good Training! J.m.o. Bill

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Old 05-21-2014, 07:46 PM   #4 (permalink)
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The round table is not meant to be stressful for the dog... Close to the ground, lots of freedom to move, round so the edge is always the same distance. The dog in that video is stressed.. Shouldn't be

The square table is stressful by design. Much higher, very short lead, the edge is irregular and close. It's meant to be stressful. The USMC makes recruits fight with pugil sticks on a beam for the same reason... Inducing stress and showing you how to cope with it and use it
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:26 PM   #5 (permalink)
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That dog was being marketed as a stud hence it really doesnt matter to me why he is like that. If he is not strong enough to stand up for some bad training or was even worse like that from the get go, he has no business being a stud.

However, Im sure the vid looked impressive to those who bought him in Oz. UNfortunately there are very few working dog people over there.
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:30 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1 View Post
That dog was being marketed as a stud hence it really doesnt matter to me why he is like that. If he is not strong enough to stand up for some bad training or was even worse like that from the get go, he has no business being a stud.

However, Im sure the vid looked impressive to those who bought him in Oz. UNfortunately there are very few working dog people over there.
Lmao that's a good point. Both mine have tolerated my early horrid handling and training quite well lol
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:37 PM   #7 (permalink)
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because knowing will make you a better evaluator.

as Vandal has said in the past some dogs appeared different when given decoy work which understood the dog .

when you develop a young dog you have to be in tune to where they are -- not shoe horn them into some pre-fab program .
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Old 05-21-2014, 11:11 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
because knowing will make you a better evaluator.

as Vandal has said in the past some dogs appeared different when given decoy work which understood the dog .

when you develop a young dog you have to be in tune to where they are -- not shoe horn them into some pre-fab program .

I know he is to weak genetically to be a stud.

From a training helper (have begun learning the ropes) prespective, I see your point.

Based on his on field preformance which isnt terrible I would assume they pushed him to hard on the table.
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Old 05-21-2014, 11:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
because knowing will make you a better evaluator.

as Vandal has said in the past some dogs appeared different when given decoy work which understood the dog .

when you develop a young dog you have to be in tune to where they are -- not shoe horn them into some pre-fab program .
I agree... And on that note, table work isn't needed for all dogs... Or just round table work... Or just square... Jäger has been mostly on the square, once or twice on a round. Katya has only been on a round table, many times
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Old 05-21-2014, 11:18 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1 View Post
I know he is to weak genetically to be a stud.

From a training helper (have begun learning the ropes) prespective, I see your point.

Based on his on field preformance which isnt terrible I would assume they pushed him to hard on the table.
From what we saw, I don't think the table did it... That wasn't pushing the dog, or maybe my opinion of stressing a dog is way skewed. I just don't think the dog was ever that strong. The table can amplify weakness for you to see... For example, a hint of defense becomes pronounced on the square table, a hint of aggression is pronounced just the same.
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Beschützer des Jägers v. Sportwaffen, HOT, IPO1, AD, CGC
Katya v. Hügelblick, HOT, IPO2, CGC
SG Aska v. Ketscher Wald, 2 x SchH3, Kkl 1
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