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table training

21K views 90 replies 19 participants last post by  hunterisgreat 
#1 ·
I admit to not knowing much about table training , so , inspired by this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/452162-dogs-nerves.html

went on a discovery route.
my experience with a table was for teaching a dog "positions" so that the dog didn't creep forward .

I can see the benefits of the round table for prey agitation , handler present - nothing worse for the decoy than to have some handler who doesn't post , who keeps drifting closer and closer .

Here is what we have , Gene England who is credited with developing this as a training aide Building a bond - Bowling Green Daily News: Local News

then this dog being worked , clearly overwrought . What happened prior to the tape . Was the decoy good . Was it necessary to prolong the dogs distress . Could the decoy properly read the dog . Should the decoy have given the dog some power over the situation by moving back ? Should the chain have been longer to allow the dog to move forward more ? Was the dogs action training failures, genetics , a mix of both?
Why select this tape to show a dog as strong -- once again down to reading and understanding a dog.
http://databasepedigree.com/videos/510/bruno-vom-wallensener-hof

My concern , as stated in the England link is that every one is sort of inventing their own versions of tables and unskilled weakend warrior type (my words) helpers are mashing away at dogs without understanding or reading them. (I'll have to iron this thought out later). In short , good decoys are hard to find .


Hunter's contribution , same thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ2NYQkGG_M

in this set up , the dog has support of handler, is given permission to get into fight , which he enjoys , and is not stressed by , and you see the progression of increased confidence in power and fight with each session.

I would be interested in hearing thoughts on this.
 
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#2 ·
The round table is for positions. The square is not. It's for bringing out aggression/defense, or teaching turn on/turn off.

Tables, and particularly the square table, are probably used incorrectly more often than not. In extremely cautious with whom I do table work with
 
#3 ·
Hi Carmen. Let me say I have never used a table" but I have trained protection dogs" in the old days they would try out a dog to work defensive" and aggressive drive if someone doesn't know what they are doing they can break or make a good fearful like the video! Done right with a good dog like hunters" wow! Most important things to train in protection! Good dog! Good Training! J.m.o. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#4 ·
The round table is not meant to be stressful for the dog... Close to the ground, lots of freedom to move, round so the edge is always the same distance. The dog in that video is stressed.. Shouldn't be

The square table is stressful by design. Much higher, very short lead, the edge is irregular and close. It's meant to be stressful. The USMC makes recruits fight with pugil sticks on a beam for the same reason... Inducing stress and showing you how to cope with it and use it
 
#5 ·
That dog was being marketed as a stud hence it really doesnt matter to me why he is like that. If he is not strong enough to stand up for some bad training or was even worse like that from the get go, he has no business being a stud.

However, Im sure the vid looked impressive to those who bought him in Oz. UNfortunately there are very few working dog people over there.
 
#7 ·
because knowing will make you a better evaluator.

as Vandal has said in the past some dogs appeared different when given decoy work which understood the dog .

when you develop a young dog you have to be in tune to where they are -- not shoe horn them into some pre-fab program .
 
#8 ·
because knowing will make you a better evaluator.

as Vandal has said in the past some dogs appeared different when given decoy work which understood the dog .

when you develop a young dog you have to be in tune to where they are -- not shoe horn them into some pre-fab program .

I know he is to weak genetically to be a stud.

From a training helper (have begun learning the ropes) prespective, I see your point.

Based on his on field preformance which isnt terrible I would assume they pushed him to hard on the table.
 
#12 ·
Yes it can in the right hands... But what we saw was low stress. Sure they could have pushed too hard and exposed or created cracks in the dog early, but I doubt it. The dog was probably just not that strong to start with... Maybe even they played with a table bc they saw that themselves
 
#16 ·
Skilled training can mask so many things... That's one reason I train the way I do. I want to explore every dark corner of the dogs mind... *really* know what he's made of.
 
#17 ·
asking what is a HB in the blind?

this from Vandal "
I agree ....over the years I have seen very good dogs worked way too much in defense. That was very common years ago. It was sad really, watching those dogs struggle to control themselves because they were pushed so far into that side of things.
Then the work with the prey instinct was introduced and mostly, I found myself helping people work their defensive dogs using that method. Over the years, things have shifted, where dogs who really would work much better with some "defense work", ( I just don't like that term but I will use it anyway), are only played with, resulting in a dog who looks weak, when he isn't. "

the same can apply to a dog worked in prey -- who doesn't show at best because by nature he is not play/prey --- give him a reason and the love of the fight comes out .

a bite should not be necessary for a good dog to come down and centre himself -- that is one of the differences in "sporty" and not .
Is the dog on the table (Bruno) a primarily prey dog , worked in defence , too young , too often ?

hard to find a balanced dog , hard to find a balanced trainer

you don't need a table to "see" a dog , you need a good eye.
 
#18 ·
Don't need no, but it makes it mor obvious to all eyes.

Jäger is absolutely an example of "a dog who doesn't show at best because by nature he is not play/prey". He began to shine when we brought out aggression and piled on pressure.
 
#19 ·
this was carmspack comment -- should have separated it more from the Vandal


"the same can apply to a dog worked in prey -- who doesn't show at best because by nature he is not play/prey --- give him a reason and the love of the fight comes out .

a bite should not be necessary for a good dog to come down and centre himself -- that is one of the differences in "sporty" and not .
Is the dog on the table (Bruno) a primarily prey dog , worked in defence , too young , too often ?

hard to find a balanced dog , hard to find a balanced trainer

you don't need a table to "see" a dog , you need a good eye"
 
#24 ·
Like I have said before about the dog who went down under....the stillness of the helper disturbed him greatly. Really, there is nothing quite as threatening to a dog as something that stands still and stares. If you consider nature, another animal doing that is not usually saying " hey, lets be friends".

Mostly, what I have seen with table work, is not very talented helpers doing the same bad training with a dog standing on a table. Many cannot seem to stop themselves from getting right on top of the dog and fail to respect the dog's aggression or power as they approach the dog. They all seem to understand, (or at least they talk like they do), that the table puts the dog in a place where there is no escape....more on edge, etc, etc, etc.
When that is the case, what you do as the "bad guy" becomes that much more important. However, like I just said, a helper who lacks the ability to read a dog, does not suddenly learn how because a dog is standing at a higher altitude.

When you push a dog into doing something, or you ignore what the dog is telling you and just keep going after him, you really 'are' working them in defense. That is not a frame of mind that serves a SchH dog well....or any dog really. The SchH dog has to start the fight and know how to control the fight, not wait for the helper and then react to it. The helper is not just training exercises, they are training behaviors. When you make a dog defensive and frantic and then reinforce it, you are teaching the dog to work in that state of mind. Yeah, he might look really ferocious on the table but mostly what happens is what we saw in that video,. When the dog is not pushed, he brings very little to the fight. He is essentially reactive and that is what can happen all too easily when the table is used incorrectly.

Like I said, many think that table makes them good helpers. if you can't get a dog to work on the ground correctly, you have no business using a table. It's the same with the e-collar. So many now want to slap that thing on and push the button. You have to learn the dog first, learn to read and understand them. Correcting a dog takes skill.
Most people who understand dogs, don't use these "tools" to the extent the less informed do. All are things you use sparingly and for dogs who will benefit and it is not a place for puppies.
 
#25 · (Edited)
exactly my thinking and exactly what I offered on a PM to someone prior to your post Vandal.

I see no point in whipping a dog into a froth in prey as the Qaiser dog is . The eyes, the ears , the body tension says he wants to get away .
The second dog is worked more conservatively with a better read and the dog is calmed and is less hectic .

this "nothing quite as threatening to a dog as something that stands still and stares. If you consider nature, another animal doing that is not usually saying " hey, lets be friends". " is the look of the predator having isolated his prey. At a recent kennel club show , which was a large well attended year-ender , many of the dogs started to squirm under the collar while the judge was making his final visual prior to deciding.

Saw the same dynamic on the Westminster show ---
 
#26 ·
table training
In the video with the black puppy I can see a nice, rather free and friendly game ending in satisfaction. In the night video with the sable puppy I see almost a strugle and obvious attempts to stmulate him. I think, this "table exercise" is a good thing for evaluating the puppy, but if we are talking about training, what, actually, does it teach? Pretty useless for a sport dog who should learn to manipulate his body in the space of a field ( even with the bite work at the short distance), the complexity of sensations the dog experiences presupposes this unlimited space. While in PP training working in a limited space exactly becomes the task - the dog, who protects his owner in the small office, or protects his car should be able to work in a small space, in which something limits ( if not cuts off completely) any possibility to grab it again in case of loss of the prey object - at list this is an impression the dog should get during training. In the car - that is its side window, here, in this video, that is the table edge.
I believe, the lead is for security, so the pup wouldn't fall over and break his legs, because, in bite work he cannot see that edge.
 
#27 · (Edited)
LOL are you still trying to imply that pup is being stressed by the table? That pup is not in the least bit stressed, nor is he trying to get away. There are some people that have much more experience then you or anyone else on here breeding and working dogs that have said he is nice.

The only place that dog is stressed is in the figments of some peoples imagination.

By the way the grip on the second more mature dog is not as good as the pups imo..probably why he on the table in the first place.
 
#28 ·
I have plenty of experience Sonny. :) I think he is an okay puppy but he 'is' stressed. I hate to point out the obvious but for someone like you who has very little experience yourself... and relies mostly on what others tell you....your comments hold little value. But you go on with your bad self using things that others say as your proof.
 
#31 · (Edited)
I have plenty of experience Sonny. :) I think he is an okay puppy but he 'is' stressed. I hate to point out the obvious but for someone like you who has very little experience yourself... and relies mostly on what others tell you....your comments hold little value. But you go on with your bad self using things that others say as your proof.

Lol actually I always thought he was hot stuff. After your comments I allowed my big bad self to contemplate that I may have missed something in the video and I asked some folks who know more what they thought.

I have always lacked the ability to think for myself...;) one of my many weaknesses.

As for my "experience" I havent been sticking dogs together for 30 years like you. (You got me there :))

I tell you what though.
Clearly you feel the pup leaves something to be desired. If you still have the occasional litter. Im sure most of them will be bought before they even touch the ground by people looking for their next competition dog. However, since they can't all be superstars I bet that one or two will be just "ok" like that pup in the vid.

Just shoot a vid of the pup doing the same stuff and showing similarly and Ill buy it from you since Im sure an "ok" middle of the road pup like that is something you produce from time to time between all the great ones...
Carmen: (same goes for you) I know you shoot the occasional vid ;).

Also, just out of curiousity who is using your dogs in their breeding programs in the last decade or so? Also competing with them?
I would like to see some of your dogs in action (not being sarcastic).
 
#29 ·
When you push a dog into doing something, or you ignore what the dog is telling you and just keep going after him, you really 'are' working them in defense. That is not a frame of mind that serves a SchH dog well....or any dog really. The SchH dog has to start the fight and know how to control the fight, not wait for the helper and then react to it. The helper is not just training exercises, they are training behaviors. When you make a dog defensive and frantic and then reinforce it, you are teaching the dog to work in that state of mind. Yeah, he might look really ferocious on the table but mostly what happens is what we saw in that video,. When the dog is not pushed, he brings very little to the fight. He is essentially reactive and that is what can happen all too easily when the table is used incorrectly.

Like I said, many think that table makes them good helpers. if you can't get a dog to work on the ground correctly, you have no business using a table. It's the same with the e-collar. So many now want to slap that thing on and push the button. You have to learn the dog first, learn to read and understand them. Correcting a dog takes skill.
Most people who understand dogs, don't use these "tools" to the extent the less informed do. All are things you use sparingly and for dogs who will benefit and it is not a place for puppies.
Very well put Anne!

I don't understand why a 4 month old puppy needs to be put on a table in the first place? What really is the purpose? And who is it really benefiting??
 
#33 ·
Very well put Anne!

I don't understand why a 4 month old puppy needs to be put on a table in the first place? What really is the purpose? And who is it really benefiting??
I would imagine, the purpose is building the bark, strike and grip without towering over the dog or having to bend over to much. Not to stress or push the dog. As has already been discussed the table can be used a million ways. That table happens to be quite large with a barrier on three sides. More of a bite box really and you see many pups in those for all the reasons mentioned above.
 
#32 ·
Leesa, my comments were more about the older dog that was shown in a different thread working on the table. I forgot his name.
However, as I said before, I see no point in using a table with a puppy and I think overall, some people have a tendency to use them too much.
I don't work puppies in "protection". Odd how people would argue with that concept but that is how baskassward things have become.
 
#34 ·
Frankly Blitzkrieg I would NOT be doing that !
I do NOT have any interest in a narrow focus , nor any interest in pushing a dog along some confined agenda time line.

My dogs are competing and going high in trial, and have gone to Nationals , with "decoys choice"
Majority are law enforcement.

I am not interested in the commerce of dogs , so not interested in public stud .

Litters, one born days ago , in a breeding program for law enforcement , specialty dogs , sire and dam my breeding multi generations -- sire retired certified dual PD , and after retirement certified as a SAR dog , dam retired working scent dog .
First and only litter for this female .
 
#35 ·
Frankly Blitzkrieg I would NOT be doing that !
I do NOT have any interest in a narrow focus , nor any interest in pushing a dog along some confined agenda time line.

My dogs are competing and going high in trial, and have gone to Nationals , with "decoys choice"
Majority are law enforcement.

I am not interested in the commerce of dogs , so not interested in public stud .

Litters, one born days ago , in a breeding program for law enforcement , specialty dogs , sire and dam my breeding multi generations -- sire retired certified dual PD , and after retirement certified as a SAR dog , dam retired working scent dog .
First and only litter for this female .
Where are these high in trial dogs? Ill be at a few trials this summer including regionals so let me know which ones to look out for...other then Journey. I cant recall seeing a Carmspack dog in trial recently or at the top of any standings.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Leesa, my comments were more about the older dog that was shown in a different thread working on the table. I forgot his name.
However, as I said before, I see no point in using a table with a puppy and I think overall, some people have a tendency to use them too much.
I don't work puppies in "protection". Odd how people would argue with that concept but that is how baskassward things have become.
Yes, the one that was foaming at the mouth..

I agree on not working puppies in "protection" too. No need to rush them. Am glad I waited Kougar out before starting him, and my pup, will do the same!

My own thoughts here.....
"I" think the table has some good uses for certain dogs or teaching certain behaviors.. "I" actually like what I've seen with the lower platforms for teaching guarding and boundaries..
 
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