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Old 03-14-2014, 03:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Smile Flip Finish V2

I just read thru the discussion of whether to use the traditional or flip finish. Rather than hijack the other thread I started a new one. I haven't a clue on how to do this especially from the point of correcting the dog to get closer. I have worked with food in my left hand, holding the ball behind my back to keep him at a correct position and using a wall to get him closer to me from the Fuss call when he is facing me. None of which are when we are moving all are in a stationary position.
I guess that the most important thing now is to get him to correct his position at my side while stationary. Then add in my rotation to my right and have him correct and finally the flip when moving or as required.
I have searched you tube, talked with one of my trainers and people who have trained their dogs where we work out.. I am really opened to suggestions, thanks for your input or direction to a URL

Phil
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Old 03-14-2014, 03:40 PM   #2 (permalink)
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kinda hard to tell what you're having a problem with sorry, is it a sloppy sideways sit when flipping that you want him to adjust?
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Old 03-14-2014, 03:52 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hi Phil
I do a flip finish for everything that is stationary. Decided not to do it for the about turn as you need to have great foot placement, timing and I compete on terrain that is uneven. But I may introduce it as I get more confident in my foot pattern.

I taught the flip finish stationary was actually very easy. First your dog needs to understand the fuss position coming from every position and needs to get to that position as quickly as possible the most direct route. so when you start to set that up you try to ensure they can only get to that position one way. I then ensure that they understand the front position again coming from any direction, and they get to that position quickly. Plus need to have rear end awareness and our comfortable working in very close proximity to yourself
I always reward with food from above my mouth. Then I linked the 2 exercises and because of the drive I have built up the dog comes in fast for the front. Then when told to fuss jumps up and over to my left shoulder and flips her body in the air to the correct position.
She is always straight. Now to be perfectly honest the first time she did the flip she was anticipating the direction to fuss and did it herself. I then just capitalized on the behavior offered.

I very seldom due the front to finish because of anticipation but also mix the commands up telling her to platz go around etc.

Hope that helps
Laurel
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Old 03-14-2014, 04:05 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsatov View Post
Hi Phil
I do a flip finish for everything that is stationary. Decided not to do it for the about turn as you need to have great foot placement, timing and I compete on terrain that is uneven. But I may introduce it as I get more confident in my foot pattern.

I taught the flip finish stationary was actually very easy. First your dog needs to understand the fuss position coming from every position and needs to get to that position as quickly as possible the most direct route. so when you start to set that up you try to ensure they can only get to that position one way. I then ensure that they understand the front position again coming from any direction, and they get to that position quickly. Plus need to have rear end awareness and our comfortable working in very close proximity to yourself
I always reward with food from above my mouth. Then I linked the 2 exercises and because of the drive I have built up the dog comes in fast for the front. Then when told to fuss jumps up and over to my left shoulder and flips her body in the air to the correct position.
She is always straight. Now to be perfectly honest the first time she did the flip she was anticipating the direction to fuss and did it herself. I then just capitalized on the behavior offered.

I very seldom due the front to finish because of anticipation but also mix the commands up telling her to platz go around etc.

Hope that helps
Laurel
I agree with some of the above. The dog having a clear and unequivocal understanding of where the fuss position is from any angle, location, etc is key IMO. Makes teaching any exercise that ends in that position much easier as the end goal is clear both in your mind and your dog's mind.

A lot of people rush to teach all the exercises which can and does work but ultimately takes longer. I'd focus on teaching the dog the fuss position regardless of where you are, and where your dog is. His right shoulder to your left leg. That's the position. You want the dog to understand that regardless of whether your left leg is forward, backward or you are just standing straight.

lsatov: For anticipation I really like teaching the heeling between the legs exercise and then teaching the dog to get to that position from the front. The dog can anticipate something is coming but if you mix it up enough he won't know which command is coming next. That's enough usually to keep him waiting for your command.
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Old 03-14-2014, 04:29 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks never thought about heeling between the legs. I have taught her the command fuss for the left side and then right for the right side so we do mix it up a fair bit, she never knows what is coming next I find this keeps her drive up. but like I said very seldom need to practice this which also helps avoid anticipation.
You should try going from a fuss to a flip into a front position. I used a small mat in front of myself to teach the front initially to ensure correct position and understanding. I do not have any anticipation problems now.

The other thing I learned was once the basic concept of the fuss position is understood. do not reward for something that is not perfect. I found a large mirror was really helpful to ensure everything was correct.
Laurel
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Old 03-14-2014, 08:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I've just started to learn & teach this.

I started and just kept on with the traditional finish as in OB trialling you can choose between the 2 and mine are excellent at the traditional finish.

However, I have recently been learning rally o and this requires the a flip finish sometimes.

My trainer advises to step back with your left leg at the same time issue the command and with a treat in your left hand bring your hand wide around in a back 1/2 circle to your waist, then bring your left leg forward again. Dog should follow the treat and finish close next to you.
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Old 03-14-2014, 09:45 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If nobody else gets around to it before me, I'll make a video later to show how I taught Pongu the flip finish.

It probably won't be until Sunday night at the soonest, because we're going to be out doing Rally competitions all day Saturday and Sunday, but it happens that the flip is one of his better moves, so I should be able to get a decent clip put together if you still need one then.

edit: fwiw, while a lot of trainers do advise moving your left leg to help the dog as you're teaching it, my personal preference is not to do it that way and keep your leg still while offering a hand target. If you get in the habit of moving your leg, then it can be really hard not to revert to that habit in a trial, at which point you will get dinged for handler help.
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Old 03-14-2014, 10:58 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Great Merciel, look forward to it.

Yes I have been wondering about the left leg going back, I think I will try without doing that.
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Old 03-16-2014, 09:12 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks all for your contributions...
I first needed to learn the "In" command which some one showed me at the work out on Saturday. I have only done the exercise once but should start integrating it into my routine for Chunk so he gets it down. The second part is the flip which I eagerly await Merciel's input with the video.
But... one step at a time, the flip will be the second step and then I can get on to the BH prep for this summer...
Thanks again for your input, I will keep you all posted on our progress and appreciate any corrective input when we begin to stall.. First lesson learned... When teaching the In command food works well but when you throw in a ball everything you just achieved goes out the window...
"Note To Self" Food only until he gets it..
Thanks again..

Phil
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:55 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Murphy's Law in action: as soon as I promised to make a video about this, my dog hurt his foot. It ended up not being a huge deal since I wanted to do a super slowed-down version anyhow, but ordinarily Pongu does a literal flip (jump) into position and he is not doing it in these youtubes because he chewed a hole in his foot so I'm not encouraging him to jump.

Anyway.

Step 1, as a couple of people mentioned up-thread, is to be sure that your dog has a very clear understanding of Heel position.

One way you can test this is to run a diagnostic exercise: close your eyes and hold yourself in the default position that you would have while your dog is in Heel (which for me is standing with shoulders straight, looking ahead, left hand over midsection -- for you it might be a little different, depending on your sport and region). Give no cues to your dog besides your posture and a call to Heel (this is why you have your eyes closed, so you can't cheat). When you open your eyes, where is your dog?

If the answer is "in Heel position," the next step is to test whether your dog can find that position from a variety of directions and with you standing in different orientations. To get more repetitions in a little faster, you can throw the treat to draw the dog off instead of rewarding in position. (NB, though, that this can erode the dog's position over time -- it's always a tradeoff between rewarding for position and rewarding to obtain movement.)

Here's Pongu doing the diagnostic exercise:


If your dog can't find Heel position reliably, or you're not totally happy with some aspect of his Sits (such as: I taught Pongu a rock-back Sit as a puppy and I'm still suffering for it), then go back and work on that first.

Step 2 is the actual teaching of the left/flip finish. I did this by getting Pongu to follow a hand target.


I find it easiest to draw the dog slightly outward when the dog is moving away from you, then back in when the dog is moving back toward you (so the dog is turning inward to reach the final position). This brings the dog in closer; if you do it the other way (turning the dog outward) you'll probably end up with a wide Sit.

If you want to encourage the dog to leap flashily into position, one way to do that is to raise your hand targets over the dog's head so that the dog is leaping up to hit it, and reward the repetitions where the dog is jumping instead of walking into position. As with all jump moves, I wouldn't recommend doing this with a puppy, or with any dog repeatedly on a hard surface.
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