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Old 02-24-2014, 04:46 PM   #11 (permalink)
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For scoring is there a difference between how well a dog that is trained to put on a good show and a dog that is trained to dig in and take it seriously will score?
Or does this depend on the judging as well and how they view the sport?
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:52 PM   #12 (permalink)
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That's a tough question, and I will look forward to others answers to it.

For me there are too many variables. Is the serious dog going to be on the edge of control in protection and fail to out? Will he be flat in obedience? Is the ornamental dog going to pop off the sleeve early because he didn't want to be there in the first place?

A well trained dog that has had good training will score well whether he's black, sable, black and red, or pink.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:23 PM   #13 (permalink)
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What makes Schutzhund and PP dogs different are two fundamental things.
1. Stimulus
2. Environment
Schutzhund protection could be trained by using +R only. Its basics lays in using your dog's positive emotions on every step with totally friendly attitude to humans. A good Schutzhund dog is quite easy to recognize when he is still a young puppy by excessive playfulness, it is easy to make him ball mad. The training starts when the decoy plays war-of -tug with your puppy and you control him emotionally for doing right things holding the end of the lead. As long as training progresses and your dog matures, he learns to interact between you and the decoy, work under distractions and stay patient. The distractions (including stroking the dog on sides or on his head) are working as positive stimulus as well, nobody wants to cause pain to the dog. There are so called "good dogs" in Schutzhund, they are total optimists, always in a good mood during training, because they get what they want - their game. Schutzhund dogs don't protect anything, they prey on the sleeve and recognize the whole training session as a play when his mental stability is the most on the check, thus IPO illustrates nothing else but partnership. Though wearing a protective suit is a rule in Europe, it is absolutely unnecessary, a Schutzhund dog of 18 months would hesitate to bite flesh, and, if he did - he would be very confused. Agressive dogs are disqualified, because they take the whole issue too seriously as a real threat and could be dangerous to public in mid-training period.
Schutzhund dogs get used to certain environment. All dogs, in fact, aquire different attitudes to different environments and behave accordingly. An open field with a man, certain smells, sounds and presence of barking dogs set your dog's mind absolutely unmistakingly. Many Schutzhund trainers speculate what makes their dogs excited and how they possibly know where they would be taken, but somehow dogs expect their next visit to Schutzhund club and get agitated the day before the event (may be they know the week days).
Training PPD has different tasks. The dog should be able to protect you, not to play games. From the very beginning the puppy is irritated over food and toys, and should always win the battle with human. They are trained to recognize certain postures and human body language in order to recognise the threat, they should know, that human agression is not a joke. The dog should learn to fight for his life and not to be distracted by pain. There are many types of PP training, from simply training one dog to bite left hand (God knows what for) and chasing like in a police pursuit - to training two dogs to rip a human apart, biting different body parts on command, dealing with guns and knives. Some training methods of the latter could be very cruel to the dog. The environment must vary as much as possible, as well as the time of the day. Nobody trains a PP dog just for fun and your personal ambitions satisfaction like a Schutzhund dog, people train them to protect their dignity, their own life and lives of their family. Your PP dog becomes your weapon.

Last edited by David Taggart; 02-24-2014 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:27 PM   #14 (permalink)
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David, I had no idea you trained/had experience in IPO and/or protection! How is that going for you? Where is your dog currently in the training process? Any titles?
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:32 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Schutzhund dogs don't protect anything, they prey

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:37 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Schutzhund dogs don't protect anything, they prey

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!
They prey? Like pray?

Nope, not exactly..
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:38 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Ask any decoy, he will tell you what the game is about, and what he is doing with the dogs who were biting him after training.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:52 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Any titles?
It's all in the past, and no reason to talk about it. Our attitudes change as we evolve for better(!). But, with all my heart, I will share experience whatever I have with IPO people and warn those who want to train their dogs as PP dogs.
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:00 PM   #19 (permalink)
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So where does ring sport factor into this where they have to run down a 'bad guy'
How does that compare?

Im not looking for a personal protection dog. Im just fascinated now that they are all so differently trained apparently.

I cannot see how irritating a dog from puppyhood is going to create anything but a monster? Maybe Im out in left field but isn't that just instigating aggression and not training at all?
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:05 PM   #20 (permalink)
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People often over-simplify the SchH/IPO vs. PPD training and ideals. It isn't as simple and cut and dry as IPO is a game the dog is not serious, and a PPD is a loaded weapon.

You CAN have a dog in IPO with not a serious protective bone in its body go through the whole protection training in prey drive, trial, and get good scores. That does not mean that IPO is all about playing tug with your dog. It is a perfectly good base for starting young dogs and bring out the fight and seriousness in them. A good decoy will adjust to what the dog needs to make it look its best. A good decoy can see the dogs that are serious and push them to develop their fight and raise their confidence.

If people are interested in protection training, IPO is a great place to start and learn. It takes hands-on experience and time to develop the eye that can differentiate between a dog working in prey with the decoy not putting much pressure on the dog, and one that has heart and willingness to engage for real.

My mixed breed wasn't very serious, but I still learned a lot working with her, and we both had a blast. Gryff has a lot of real potential, has been worked by a number of trainers that train police K9's, so he has been pushed and challenged (at my request) to see what is in him, and he did well.

Two different dogs, worked to the level of their potential. That is what you should expect from any training, whether PPD or IPO.

My suggestion still stands: get involved in IPO to get a taste of protection training, and if you find that you have a dog with a lot of potential, and you are interested in pursuing more advanced training, they you already have a great foundation to build on.
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