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Old 08-30-2013, 06:45 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default How to fix problematic OUT without harsh connections

My dog doesn't out properly when in high drive. He outs quite nicely in lower drive, like when I'm tugging with him or playing with ball. But when we do some workouts with a helper, he gets so excited that he doesn't out. I've been told to use harsh corrections, but I believe he would bite me for doing that. The problem is that I've never really used any harsh corrections and starting that now with a 10 months old would be a major change in the "rules".

So I've been thinking that is it possible to teach out with toy exchange or similar game so that it really transfers to high-drive situations like IPO manwork? Is that even possible?
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:18 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I know some people have had varying degrees of success with presenting another sleeve to the dog. If you don't want to issue the harsh correction then don't. He's your dog. Not the helpers, the TDs or the other members. YOU have to live with him, not them.
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Old 08-30-2013, 08:11 AM   #3 (permalink)
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If you have access to a second helper, have the first helper remain still and dull while your dog is on the sleeve and you are ready to out your dog. I don't know if you use a whip, but if you do, have the second helper come out on the field in the dog's field of vision and start cracking the whip and making prey movements with the sleeve. He can move closer toward your dog if he still doesn't out. The goal is for your dog to see the second helper as more interesting due to him stimulating his prey drive while the first helper is essentially flat and just standing there. The first helper can also clip a leash to the sleeve and take his arm out and back up, but still keep tension on the sleeve. If your dog does out the reward is the bite on the second helper. If that works, I would have the second helper slip the sleeve right after the dog targets.
If that doesn't work, you can just wait the dog out, while the helper is passive. This could take several minutes and you would have to give him a reward of rebiting the helper. Another option is to flank your dog to out him. It doesn't have to be harsh, but quick and enough to surprise/shock him off the bite. Again, he should be rewarded for outing. If you are worried about getting bit, wear leather gloves. Or you could choke your dog off the bite by grabbing his collar and lifting his front feet off the ground and waiting for him to out while giving the command. You are not really choking the dog. Again reward him. If you dog really enjoys the fight, getting to out for a tug can be difficult.
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Old 08-30-2013, 08:51 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Toy exchange I don't care for... to me you're not teaching the dog that he must out when you command it. I like to fight hard with the dogs, then go neutral and give it a second to process, command "out", and if they don't I just "nah nah nah... " and I'm pretty boring until you do out, then I explode back into a big fight.. rinse and repeat. For every out where I take the dog away from the helper or sleeve, or end the game, there are 3 outs where they get it back proportional to how fast the out was... i.e., at stupid fast & clean out gets an immediate regrip and big fun party fight... a chewy slow out, means I stand there for a few seconds and then regrip.

I do not have out problems with my dogs so I'm doing something right.

Also, don't be scared of your dog biting you. If you feel he might, then at some point he probably will, and regardless of the circumstances you need to be prepared to deal with that. If I get bit (not from a miss target, but a bite truly intended for me when I am handling the dog) I "bite back" harder.
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Old 08-30-2013, 08:56 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Yeah, we use whip. I guess second helper would be logical second "toy" for high-drive situations .

****, this dog is smart. I just tried outting with two identical tugs, but it won't help. The second one must be better! So with helpers, the second helper needs to be bigger...
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:04 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Timing and correct use of praise is important also. If he does out and focus on the second helper, the first helper gets out of the picture and you praise with "good out/aus" and pat your dog up and then, if he is doing off leash sends, I'd send him to the second helper for a bite. If no sends, the second helper has to time offering the sleeve so that the dog doesn't have to wait too long and sees the bite as a reward.
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:04 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarkko View Post
My dog doesn't out properly when in high drive. He outs quite nicely in lower drive, like when I'm tugging with him or playing with ball. But when we do some workouts with a helper, he gets so excited that he doesn't out. I've been told to use harsh corrections, but I believe he would bite me for doing that. The problem is that I've never really used any harsh corrections and starting that now with a 10 months old would be a major change in the "rules".

So I've been thinking that is it possible to teach out with toy exchange or similar game so that it really transfers to high-drive situations like IPO manwork? Is that even possible?
When a dog is in a high state of drive, a correction is hardly felt anyway, so it needs to be firm to get thru to the brain.
Has your dog redirected back to you before?
If my dog won't out, the helper will hold a tab on the prong collar(attached under the chin) and do the correcting after the command to out.
When the correction to out is a pull forward, not a check back by the handler it usually is very effective(the handler has line pressure holding the dog back on harness or flat collar) Dog learns fast that out means out. And outing is rewarded with another bite. Usually only one or two sessions will make it clear to the dog that out means out, even if the helper is still moving or can't lock up because the dog is still trying to control him.
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Last edited by onyx'girl; 08-30-2013 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:06 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterisgreat View Post
Toy exchange I don't care for... to me you're not teaching the dog that he must out when you command it. I like to fight hard with the dogs, then go neutral and give it a second to process, command "out", and if they don't I just "nah nah nah... "
So how exactly does it work when the dog just bites and stares back when you command out? You say nah nah nah and do nothing? And after some time the dog get bored and outs? What happens after that?

Quote:
Also, don't be scared of your dog biting you. If you feel he might, then at some point he probably will, and regardless of the circumstances you need to be prepared to deal with that. If I get bit (not from a miss target, but a bite truly intended for me when I am handling the dog) I "bite back" harder.
Yeah I guess I should be prepared for that in this sport. Accidental bites I get often, but so far never intentional. Or so I think .
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:07 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I know that having the helper correct the dog to out is popular in some circles, but I don't ever want the helper outing my dog. I think it sends the wrong message that the helper is dominating the dog. It can make for a nice looking performance, but doesn't make sense in terms of how the dog sees the helper.
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:10 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I know what hunter is trying to say and I do the same. Teach proper out with a toy first. Make it boring and stiff. No self satisfaction from pulling on a dead tug. Say out, once. Wait him out. at first you can reward any out regardless of time by giving the release command and tugging hard again. Then repeat. Eventually you want to only reward fast outs. Fast outs = fast release. Slow out = long wait before another release (but no obedience, just sit there and wait a while. If you go to obedience on a slow out you will get even slower outs). I usually don't do exchanges because there is no reward for outing, the new toy becomes the cue to out. I personally don't like that (just my opinion).

Sounds like you have outing problems in general, and might be moving too fast.

Work on out with a tug so the dog is not too overloaded and can think. then build it up in protection once it's clear in his head that out means a fast out. You can work on other things for now (H&B, etc) and let the dog carry in protection. When you are ready to work on outing, you can spend every protection day working on just the out, then put it all together. The helper can reward a fast out like hunter said, but also at that point if the dog is clear I have no qualms about letting the dog know that not outing or outing slow is unacceptable.

And on another note, if you are afraid of your dog you might consider a sport where he does not get so high in drive. You need to command respect from your dog, and he will feel it if you are afraid of him, it travels right down the leash.

Good luck!

Last edited by ayoitzrimz; 08-30-2013 at 09:18 AM.
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