Helpers and petting - Page 3 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Increase font size: 0, 10, 25, 50%

GermanShepherds.com is the premier German Shepherd Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-21-2013, 09:55 AM   #21 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 18,454
Default

Yeah I'm still not really getting it...not saying it's wrong but WHY? For training....ok training what? I see people that do lots of stuff in training that I don't think is appropriate or I won't allow with my dog.
__________________
Coke (All-American 7/7/06)
Nikon (GSD 9/7/08)
Indy (All-American 5/10/12)
Legend (GSD 10/22/13)
Rainbow Bridge Kenya (GSD)

Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-21-2013, 10:06 AM   #22 (permalink)
Moderator
 
gagsd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: georgia
Posts: 4,262
Default

I agree Lies..... wrong or right is not my question so much as WHY.

I remember one of the first dogs I ever worked was very quick to bite. Green dog, green handler and green helper. Helper reached under to cradle the jaw and very nearly lost fingers. That dog was THRILLED to be offered something to bite.
Another dog I work now just does not want a helper during protection handling him, much less trying to pet him/stroke him on the head while biting.

If the point is to calm the grip, and all it does is cause the dog to fight more.... then why would we need to desensitize that? (even if we could)
And at least for the dogs I have experience with, adding defense is not the reason. That can be done with a look.
__________________
----Mary
von den Thermalquellen
on Facebook
-and- on the web
gagsd is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 10:32 AM   #23 (permalink)
Master Member
 
ayoitzrimz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 987
Default

There are lots of reasons to do it (cup under the jaw bit). Depends on the dog.
For some dogs, its to add a little pressure and make them uncomfortable to try and get them to counter.
For other dogs, its to actually calm the grip.
Yet for other dogs, we've done it to discourage automatic out due to the new rule changes (transition phase).
Point is: you gotta do what makes the dog offer the behavior you want. If it's more fight, more calmness, etc it does not matter because the same action can have different results depending ON THE DOG!

There are things that may look different to handler and helper. Example: you see lots of helpers (Vit Glisnik comes to mind) that will almost pet the dogs' feet with the stick. Looks like they are gently brushing them with the stick! A handler might say - what's the point? desensitize them to it? Make friends with them? No I don't want my helper being friendly with the dog or letting him know he's safe etc. but in reality lots of dogs don't like having their paws touched and doing so even gently makes them uncomfortable enough to counter, fight, grip harder, whatever the individual dog does - and if that's what you are trying to achieve in that training session then that's good training!

The point is, helpers often try different things on different dogs and see what works. Ask the helper about why he did xyz, and he / she should give you a reason that you may or may not agree with - but you should not get a blank stare back

But yea, I agree in not doing something without the why. The why can be simple or complex, but there must be a reason for any behavior by the helper (because there is always a reason for a behavior by the dog!)

Last edited by ayoitzrimz; 02-21-2013 at 10:41 AM.
ayoitzrimz is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 10:36 AM   #24 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Nashville, TN and Budapest HU
Posts: 4,256
Default

It is also, when done correctly and at the correct time, to check the grip. Not only the fullness, but the intensity and chewiness. A grip might look full, but the pressure is "like a butterfly on my arm" .

Again, it is another tool that can be used, when needed.

Plus, the helper should explain why and discuss with the handler. Not just do it. And there should be a reason for it.
__________________
www.k9imports.com
V KK1 Molinari Enzo SCH3,IPO3,VK3,FH (WUSVx3,FCIx4)HOT
KK1 Frodo v Biezenhoeve SCH3,IPO3,HPO3.FCI & WUSV '10-'12, FCI '14. HOT
KK1 Griff v Tajgetosz SCH3,IPO3(BHOT) FCI & WUSV 2013
Smithie86 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 11:38 AM   #25 (permalink)
Knighted Member
 
Vandal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Saugus, CA
Posts: 2,149
Default

I think the rule of thumb people can use is, if the helper is doing this with more than one dog, ( or all the dogs in the club), and doing it all the time, you can start to suspect that he might not know what he is doing, or is simply going thru the motions. Each dog is different and there are other ways to calm a dog, or disturb them, through the helper work without touching him with your hands. Last dog I did that with was a very nervy female malinois. I did not do it to calm her on the grip , I did it after the rest of the work achieved that and only briefly, mostly because I was so impressed by the transformation of that dog and wanted to see if she would allow it, when before that point, she would have completely freaked out. I don't recall doing it before that dog, that's how infrequently I have done it.

I see people do this now where the hand is on the top of the head and under the chin. Some seem like they are actually holding the dog's mouth on the sleeve. Again, proper helper work will achieve the result where the dog will hold, trying to do it with "obedience" is just dumb. I see people doing this with lots of dogs, not really in a specific fashion and that right there tells me all I need to know. . Not something I believe in , especially as I have said, the people doing it are, with every dog they work. I've had people ask me to do that stuff and I don't feel any difference in the grip. Don't really believe in using it to pressure the dogs so, that could be part of the reason...but I doubt it. The most effective helpers apply and release pressure or disturb the dogs more through mental pressure than any kind of physical contact. Not many people have the ability to do it, so, these are the things they use...too often....if you ask me and it will not take the place of the later. Touching the dog can be just as "rote", when it is done over and over in training.


Quote:
It is also, when done correctly and at the correct time, to check the grip. Not only the fullness, but the intensity and chewiness. A grip might look full, but the pressure is "like a butterfly on my arm" .
I have never had to feel the grip with my other hand. If a helper has to do that, they should not be working dogs. Maybe you meant something else Sue? That makes no sense to me.
Yes, you should always ask a helper WHY. Seems like many helpers just get stuck doing the same stuff whether it produces a result or not. They just do it, to do it.
__________________

Anne
www.adlerstein.com

Last edited by Vandal; 02-21-2013 at 11:41 AM.
Vandal is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 11:51 AM   #26 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Nashville, TN and Budapest HU
Posts: 4,256
Default

Anne - demo was done to show the handler who insisted that the grip was full and hard all the time.

The dog shifted the grip post bite and pre-hand. And the grip was not hard at all. And this was a problem when dog 1st started coming to train, post another training.

No, should not be all the time.

But, that gets back to the other question I posted - what is your (all inclusive to posters) definition of training?
__________________
www.k9imports.com
V KK1 Molinari Enzo SCH3,IPO3,VK3,FH (WUSVx3,FCIx4)HOT
KK1 Frodo v Biezenhoeve SCH3,IPO3,HPO3.FCI & WUSV '10-'12, FCI '14. HOT
KK1 Griff v Tajgetosz SCH3,IPO3(BHOT) FCI & WUSV 2013
Smithie86 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:17 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com