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OKAY, all you SchH Snobs!

12K views 137 replies 42 participants last post by  Smithie86 
#1 ·
(And I say that lovingly/joking. Kind of).

We used to have our flyball practices at 9 am every Sunday. Until the ScH snobs decided they didn't want us using it.
They started getting there at 8:30 so we had to find another park to practice at.
This wouldn't bother me, normally (because it WAS their usual park before us), but when they found out we were using it, they started coming for training earlier so we had to relocate.
Not to mention, they're just flat-out rude.

If we show up while they're setting up, they will shoot us dirty looks the whole time. (We would stay there to wait for everyone to get there so we could all collaborate to find another park).

When I was asking my breeder about clubs around here (because when I get my GSD, I REALLY do want to do SchH). She told me she wouldn't recommend any of the SchH clubs out here. (She does PSA).

I've also heard that (in general), they don't like newbies, they don't like people who don't intend on trialing/titling their dogs, they don't care for non-breeders, I've heard some clubs use less-than-ethical training methods to get the dogs titled quicker....
(Mind you, this is all what I've HEARD).

What the heck, guys? I wonder how many others are scared away from trying out the sport just from heresay....
I'm not going to decide if I'll do it or not based on rumors, but I will admit - I'm quite intimidated to go out and see clubs train and talk to them.

(This pertains to the local clubs).
 
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#112 ·
I'd rather start out a young dog at least in tracking and obedience....with a little rag work done now and then, but most pups do need to mature some before doing protection. Where I train, most pups aren't doing bitework until they are a year or so. Still makes for a long day of training.
IMO anyone that hasn't trained before should be going regularly, observing the skilled handlers to better learn handling skills, timing and other aspects of all three phases. I'd hate it if I was isolated in a BH group.
 
#113 ·
My point was that people are welcome to watch the SchH Training but only get to work their dogs during the BH group. That does make a big difference, that is why both, the BH group and the SchH group should be the same day. Let's say you have three new prospective handlers. Take two hours for Obedience, for the BH group, than an hour break for the SchH people to arrive and if the prospective handlers are really committed they WILL stay and watch the SchH training.

Also, most of the time our group is done around 1500/1600 with obedience and bitework, so the BH group could be after the SchH group and a good handler could volunteer for them.

It makes it so much easier for everyone involved. If they want to, they can come early and watch the training and once the helper walks off the field, they get to take out their dogs and train them.

It is a win/win situation for both sides. No interference with the SchH group. Handlers get to watch and learn and then to work their dogs.
 
#114 ·
From my observations with the clubs I've been in, the younger dogs are doing shorter sessions in tracking and ob so aren't really a burden on the time. Tracks are shorter, obedience is mostly focus work so 10 minutes on the field is about all that is necessary. We usually have 2-3 dogs on the field when we train to keep the pace moving and give the dogs a distraction of sorts. I guess for the larger member groups your idea would be great, but a club with less, it isn't that big a time crunch. I know the pay to play clubs have flights and you know exactly when/what you are doing...but tracking isn't done during that time either. Tracking is on another day.
I like the type club that goes out early to track, a few people watch/critique others when they track. and then you move on to OB, followed by protection.

Protection is where the time eater is, especially if someones working out a problem/issue. And giving the helper a break in between~discussing the session previous and the upcoming one. Then many helpers start in with stories worthy of hearing, but eating away daylight! LOL
 
#115 ·
From my observations with the clubs I've been in, the younger dogs are doing shorter sessions in tracking and ob so aren't really a burden on the time. Tracks are shorter, obedience is mostly focus work so 10 minutes on the field is about all that is necessary. We usually have 2-3 dogs on the field when we train to keep the pace moving and give the dogs a distraction of sorts. I guess for the larger member groups your idea would be great, but a club with less, it isn't that big a time crunch. I know the pay to play clubs have flights and you know exactly when/what you are doing...but tracking isn't done during that time either. Tracking is on another day.
I like the type club that goes out early to track, a few people watch others track and then you move on to OB, then protection. Protection is where the time eater is, especially if someones working out a problem/issue. And giving the helper a break in between~discussing the session previous and the upcoming one. Then many helpers start in with stories worthy of hearing, but eating away daylight! LOL
That is why there was a BH group. Only after they successfully earned their BH they got to go on the field to work them in protection. Firs they had to show the commitment to overcome the BH.

If you want to know if someone is committed to the training, have them get the BH first.

Same goes for Agility. You cannot compete in Germany in Agility without getting the BH. Same for RH. You need the BH.

The BH is the prerequisite for anything you do and it tests the commitment. If you have a group separate from SchH, they do not take the time away from the seasoned handler and still get to watch. That is why there are BH groups separate from the SchH groups, so the newbies do not take time away from them yet get to work their dogs.
 
#116 ·
The problem I see with that scenario is that trials are so few and far between here, often getting a BH is about more than the training. I traveled two states over (4 hours) just to do a BH. Just because a dog does not have a BH yet or is not titled does not mean it's not good enough or the handler isn't experienced or committed yet. I know a few people who choose to train a dog through SchH3 and then will wait until trial season picks up and do all of their trials one after the other. Also we had a seminar recently by some pretty popular and knowledgeable SchH folk who actually train their dogs in protection first and don't even start obedience until the dog can do the protection routines. I don't necessarily agree with that, but there are many styles of training that wouldn't really work with being stuck in a pre-BH group until the dog earns a BH and not being able to do anything else.
 
#117 · (Edited)
How many clubs are that large though or want to be(unless it is pay to play)?
Usually there is a cap on membership.
The only ones that I know that the B group would work well for is the guys who train dogs for their living, and can work 5 or 7 days a week training dogs.
In certain areas of MI there are so many clubs, seldom are turning away members. But many are expensive/profitable to the helpers.
On my side of the state, nothing IPO(mostly the Dutch and Irish located here...still waiting for the KNPV club to get going!)
South-Eastern MI is a fairly large German settled area. The name of the roads are mostly German.
 
#118 ·
I don't know if I would like that, either. I want to be part of the group. I think keeping everyone together (but less time with the younger dogs on bite work) is the best way to go. I'd like to see the development in bite work over time, and wouldn't want to wait that long to start tracking. Especially not with having a dog that really could use it!
 
#119 ·
Guess a model that works for I don't know how many years in Europe isn't good enough for the "Snobs" over here. :p

You are not separated from the group. You can watch the group and be part of that group.

The whole point of the BH group is that you are with people that are at the same level and if you are the only one, think about all the time the trainer has just for YOU and how quickly you will learn with your dog.

Look into the Equestrian world. You think beginners take lessons with advanced dressage riders? You think the newbies in Agility are in advanced Agility classes?

No, they start out in beginner classes so the trainers can actually take their time to explain the in and out of the sport and what you have to do without taking the time away from the advanced handlers.

It doesn't mean you can't work on the retrieve or the jumps or watch and be part of the SchH group. But if you guys can't see the benefit of having a separate group for beginners than you will be stuck in the same circle for years.

It meets the needs of both, beginners and advanced folks!
 
#120 ·
We do all 3 phases on the same day. We have people traveling from 2-4 hours away each weekend. These are the people that are committed and on time.

We start with tracking. We are starting to rotate tracking - if you are not serious and not on time, we leave to go to the tracking fields and you will meet us at the training field. Late people (and it is always the local nearby people, no matter what time training is at - they are always late and no notice) are disrespectful and disruptive to everyone. People need to watch and support everyone.

Serious means commitment. You can be serious at the BH and basic level and be more committed than someone that supposedly has been doing this longer at a slightly higher level.
 
#125 ·
We do all 3 phases on the same day. We have people traveling from 2-4 hours away each weekend. These are the people that are committed and on time.

We start with tracking. We are starting to rotate tracking - if you are not serious and not on time, we leave to go to the tracking fields and you will meet us at the training field. Late people (and it is always the local nearby people, no matter what time training is at - they are always late and no notice) are disrespectful and disruptive to everyone. People need to watch and support everyone.

Serious means commitment. You can be serious at the BH and basic level and be more committed than someone that supposedly has been doing this longer at a slightly higher level.
Would you mind telling me where you train? I live in Huntsville and it looks like our only choice is to go to Nashville or Birmingham. It's about equal distance either way for us. Being new at this I don't know exactly what I should be looking for in a club. Thanks for any input!
 
#121 ·
We do obedience in pairs and you usually have 5-6 people out watching, spotting, coaching, and helping you so I don't see how it's all that different? One person on a long down, the other working their dog. Everyone who isn't otherwise doing something watches and helps not just one experienced person (though some people have more skill with spotting and giving ideas on the spot, others can help by forming the group, firing the shots, helping adjust the obstacles for retrieve...). I know I have a bad habit of getting chatty with people and often have to remind myself to get off my butt and go help! Everyone pays the same amount and everyone is expected to help regardless of their experience or how many dogs they are training so everyone gets the same one-on-one time out on the field with people helping.
 
#122 ·
First this isn't Germany where you can't swing a cat and not hit a club but I appreciate you once again pointing out US deficiencies . I drive further to train r/t than it takes to drive across Germany east to west. More people than not are in that same situation as myself with the distances between clubs/training groups so we need to try and get as much time on the filed as we can.
 
#124 ·
It all depends on the club and their resources. I've trained with clubs that had 2-3 healthy helpers and were begging for more people and I've trained with clubs where we basically decided we were at capacity. Like people keep saying, you cannot *force* a helper to work more dogs than they can handle. How does that serve anyone? It can be dangerous in the heat and it's not beneficial to the club if their helper is doing a half-butt job on all the dogs because there are just too many of them to work. I've already had my dog worked by helpers that were probably over-doing it (back problems, hip problems, etc). The club might be looking for 4 new people and then 8 months later isn't accepting any new members. Things are in flux all the time. When I first started there was no club so we basically started our own, then thing changed and we all parted ways. Eventually I found a different club I liked and was told the club was probably full but I stuck around and got in.
 
#126 ·
The thread was started because of the attitude observed of a SchH club....not about whether or not they can accomodate members.
A few of the responses in this thread do show there is 'attitude'....rolling eyes, etc which does give someone reading who's never even been to a club reason to believe there is just that....snobbery! But like many posted, you find that in all walks of life, some people are nice/neutral, some think they are above it all and some are so intimidated that everything is scary....and everything in between.
 
#128 ·
Jane, like most threads, this one has ventured into other areas.

I visited two clubs when I was in Germany. Guess that isn't as many as Mrs. K. has trained with. Both were clubs with world level competitors (one Mali, one GSD). Both clubs there were people working more of a routine center field and then others working in different areas with newer people or with their own pups. At the one club on the other side of the fence there was agility going on. Anyhow, at no time were there different time frames or groups. The puppies and young dogs worked both OB and PR and were given the time they needed (despite it being freezing cold, working under lights at night). The clubs were very efficient at how they used the time to make sure all the dogs were worked. The Mali club did not have a lit obedience field and they had to start up a generator to light their protection field. What I really liked is that these are true clubs. They have club houses, everyone hangs out afterwards and chats, drinks beer, eats. I was treated extremely well at the GSD club. The Mali people were not as social, but still very friendly. Their club was huge so more dogs were being worked in a short time frame.

I have a friend that trains with a club in the south. She and I were talking last night because she is fairly new to SchH. Her TD/helper is a hired sleeve though they do have a club. She is fairly new to the sport and, gasp, has show dogs (she also now has a working dog) so wasn't always treated well. Also, gasp, she is a woman. Despite this, she wants to do SchH, she wants to compete so she sticks it out despite the snarky remarks from some of the members and the outrageous training fees (I could not train in her club because of this). I keep telling her to move back up here. We would welcome her in our club and there are a number of other clubs in our region that would welcome her.
 
#129 ·
Don't really know why everyone is getting so bent out of shape. :confused:

I just hit the one year mark with my club and its no surprise that it took some effort on my part to prove that I was dedicated to the team. Showing up consistently late, only staying for your turn, making excuses why you haven't trained/ showed up the past few weeks, and not taking the initiative to help out are all things that WONT get you in with a club. Its not elitist, its the demonstration you need to prove to show YOUR serious about THEM taking you serious.
 
#130 · (Edited)
Seriously... its all related to the sense of entitlement people have nowadays.

It's like "why wouldn't they welcome me with open arms? Don't they know how special I am? How smart my dog is?
I would be an asset to any club and these guys are just elitist jerks because they fail to see that.
Oh and of course I can't make 8am tracking I have kids to take care of!
and oh, of course its not true that my dog may not be suited for bite work! They just say that because it's not the TD's breeding...
oh and I'm sorry but I can't stick around all day I have a long drive home.
What do you mean I have to help setup the field?
What do I pay dues for? And are the dues really necessary? Can you put me on a payment plan? Why not???
What exactly do they pay for?
And why am I being ignored? It's not because I ask the same questions every week and show NO improvement or understanding but because these guys are jerks, and on and on and on...

jeez give it a rest people. If you are not welcomed with open arms it just means you have to either find somewhere else or make the effort to be accepted - show you are dedicated and show you are not here to bs and waste everyone's time. It's just so tiring hearing the same old cries and excuses...

Not related to The OP's post at all by the way, but more so to the direction the thread has gone
 
#131 ·
I'm not part of a Schutzhund club, but I am part of my state's GSD club. In 2 years I'm already the treasurer, and the people there really only accept you once you start volunteering and getting to know everyone for who they are and not just the dogs/training. Volunteering at our shows, staying after to clean up a bit, basically just participating and giving time to a place that charges $200 a year for club dues and training fees.

Of course we won't deny anyone that doesn't do those things...but you definitely get different treatment from instructors. It's just a human thing though...people are more willing to help those that they know better and that they see helping out the club. You put in a little more effort...they put in a little more effort. Also helps to be trying to trial/title a dog as well since a competition sit has to be more exact than a "pet" sit.
 
#132 ·
I visited two clubs when I was in Germany. Guess that isn't as many as Mrs. K. has trained with. Both were clubs with world level competitors (one Mali, one GSD). Both clubs there were people working more of a routine center field and then others working in different areas with newer people or with their own pups. At the one club on the other side of the fence there was agility going on. Anyhow, at no time were there different time frames or groups.
There are lots of different concepts on how a club is run and there are thousands of different clubs.

One club for example has this concept for the BH group which is divided into three different groups. The groups train on Monday, Thursday and Saturday.

Group 1: handler teams that already passed the BH
Group 2: young dogs and beginners
Group 3: advanced handler teams.

Schutzhund is on Wednesdays and Saturdays. Saturday it's after the basic obedience (BH) class is done.
Agility is on Thursdays approx. 1930 and THS is on Monday, Thursday and Saturday.

It is a highly organized and popular club.

Another Club for example has this time-frame

Monday 19:00 Schutzhundesport
Tuesday 18:00 Agility-Beginners Group 1
19:00 Agility-Beginners Group 2
Wednesday 18:00 Agility Advanced
Thursday no training
Friday 17:00 Obedience
Saturday 13:30 Puppies(8. - 16. week)
14:15 puppies (17. - 24. Lebenswoche)
15:00 Obedience/Basics
15:00 Group Work
Sunday 09:00 Tracking
 
#133 ·
There are lots of dog clubs like that here. I go to a dog club where we do flyball on Tues, GSD club on Wed (more of a meeting/planning, not training), nosework on Thurs, and then trials on the weekends. They also offer several levels of obedience, agility, and puppy classes.
 
#134 ·
Yeah, we don't have anything like that around here at all. Not that I know off. The closest club to me, that is consistently training twice a week is the new SchH club in Ottawa which is just one and a half hour away. However, the helper is very very very green but just for Obedience and Tracking, it's worth the drive plus I can go twice a week for the same amount of time I'd have to drive to Buffalo.

The people are VERY outgoing which I told them too and they said that it is because other clubs are so unfriendly and they do not want to give the same experience to new people coming to the club and what I really like is that it's not just pattern, pattern and more pattern. What I like is that they do more than just Schutzhund style Obedience.

Like I said, I never expected CKC Utility Obedience to be THAT challenging. The Canadian Club is the first Club I'm actually willing to join.
 
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