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OKAY, all you SchH Snobs!

12K views 137 replies 42 participants last post by  Smithie86 
#1 ·
(And I say that lovingly/joking. Kind of).

We used to have our flyball practices at 9 am every Sunday. Until the ScH snobs decided they didn't want us using it.
They started getting there at 8:30 so we had to find another park to practice at.
This wouldn't bother me, normally (because it WAS their usual park before us), but when they found out we were using it, they started coming for training earlier so we had to relocate.
Not to mention, they're just flat-out rude.

If we show up while they're setting up, they will shoot us dirty looks the whole time. (We would stay there to wait for everyone to get there so we could all collaborate to find another park).

When I was asking my breeder about clubs around here (because when I get my GSD, I REALLY do want to do SchH). She told me she wouldn't recommend any of the SchH clubs out here. (She does PSA).

I've also heard that (in general), they don't like newbies, they don't like people who don't intend on trialing/titling their dogs, they don't care for non-breeders, I've heard some clubs use less-than-ethical training methods to get the dogs titled quicker....
(Mind you, this is all what I've HEARD).

What the heck, guys? I wonder how many others are scared away from trying out the sport just from heresay....
I'm not going to decide if I'll do it or not based on rumors, but I will admit - I'm quite intimidated to go out and see clubs train and talk to them.

(This pertains to the local clubs).
 
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#75 · (Edited)
They started getting there at 8:30 so we had to find another park to practice at.
This wouldn't bother me, normally (because it WAS their usual park before us), but when they found out we were using it, they started coming for training earlier so we had to relocate.
So they use to train in a park, but later, when they arrive, there is other people using it, so they start arriving earlier. Isn't it the logical thing to do?

And dare they to give unfriendly looks to the people who has been occupying the place where they've always trained? Duh?
 
#135 ·
No, we would be gone by the time they got there. They just started showing up earlier once they knew we practiced there so we couldn't use the park at all. So now, between our flyball team and the SchH people, it's a rivalry on who can get there first.
The only time they showed up while we were still there working was when they tried beating us there. Otherwise, we're long gone by the time they get there to train.
They just don't want us using it.

I want to know what kind of park this is...just a city/county park with a large field that they just train Schutzhund on?
It's a decent sized field in an industrial/business area. During our practices (which last about 2-3 hours), only two or three cars will pass by in that time.

So why not make it mandatory for beginners to start with Obedience and Tracking before they get to do any bitework at all?
This sounds like a good (and safe) idea to me.
If someone newer to the sport gets to try out bitework without at least a solid obedience foundation, how dangerous could that 'partially trained' bitework dog be if they decide not to pursue SchH?

IMO anyone that hasn't trained before should be going regularly, observing the skilled handlers to better learn handling skills, timing and other aspects of all three phases. I'd hate it if I was isolated in a BH group.
This is what I intend on doing.... Before getting my GSD.

I had a long post written and then realized that I would be arguing with a person who has stated they know NOTHING about SchH/IPO. Just not worth my time. I would rather help those who are actually interested in learning. :)
THIS.
RIGHT HERE.
I'm very interested in learning, and hopefully competing someday. I just don't think it'd be wise to try and learn everything about SchH/IPO YEARS (hopefully not that long, but it's likely) before I get my dog I'd be competing with, considering training methods, clubs, people, etc. change over time.
That long post may have been helpful for me, considering I DO know next to nothing about the sport.
 
#76 ·
I want to know what kind of park this is...just a city/county park with a large field that they just train Schutzhund on? That would never fly where I live...and we have one of the most pet friendly areas I've ever been. I can take my dog to the county parks, let him off leash (not legally but no one gripes) and train simple stuff, let him run, let him swim (lake Michigan), and just have a blast...but I think if I started working bite work without an enclosed area...there would be phone calls lol.

I mean...I get the whole "its everyones park" thing but I'm just focusing on the activity and what it involves, its not something the general public usually understands and I'm sure the parents across the street at the playground wouldn't really like to see it going on.
 
#77 ·
Ann hit it spot on imo. Whole thread makes me roll my eyes. I've encountered these types in every sport I've been involved in.

I know some people think my club isn't super friendly. Funny though...i have managed wonderfully with them with a rescue and a dog I imported on my own. Show your own friendliness and commitment and you'd be surprised.

But after one experience youre coming on the internet whining about schh snobs....probably dont even bother.
 
#127 ·
Ann hit it spot on imo. Whole thread makes me roll my eyes. I've encountered these types in every sport I've been involved in.

I know some people think my club isn't super friendly. Funny though...i have managed wonderfully with them with a rescue and a dog I imported on my own. Show your own friendliness and commitment and you'd be surprised.

But after one experience youre coming on the internet whining about schh snobs....probably dont even bother.
Hun...its the schutzhund thread agreeing with Ann in the schutzhund thread isn't exactly sticking your neck out and taking a risk is it

Am I flawed...you bet I am thats why I am not in your club-perfect is just too hard and frankly(forgive the pun) a little boring...

To the OP if its a public park you have every bit as much right to be there as the schutzhund club-just get up early in the morning:D:D

Gosh I eye roll too...at those schutzhund people who have taken a wrong turn and ended up in the AKC ring...and they are still dressed for schutzhund:rolleyes: have to get my amusement somehow
 
#78 ·
LOL we have the same with flyball. We have people that come to practice and travel to every tournament but don't even HAVE a dog and seem to enjoy themselves, and then we have people that come once or twice, or beg to come and never show up or can't handle the length of the practice or having to attend a tournament before you're allowed to be voted in.

I recently visited a local GSD club and decided it was not for me. The people were OK and no one seemed hostile or uninviting but it just didn't "click". Nothing wrong with that.
 
#79 ·
A common thing I hear here is that people left because they felt like they were being "ignored" by the club members. On the other side you have the veterans who see maybe 50 new people over a year. 10 of them stay for a month. Maybe 2 will stay for a year. 1-2 will title their dogs. (These are just an example, not to scale as they say :) ) so surely they'll have their reservations about "opening up the red carpet" for anybody that comes to their training.

At the end of the day, if you are going out to a club where everyone knows each other, it is up to YOU to reach out, make some friends, come prepared, ask questions, be polite, and take any criticism on the chin. Nobody is cursing at you, nobody is calling you names or attacking you personally. If you don't like the atmosphere move on to the next club. Find the club that fits YOUR training style best.

Some clubs are more business-like than others. I've been to clubs where the grill and beers will be flowing from the morning till the afternoon and clubs that don't even go for a coffee run until everyone has done tracking + obedience. Other clubs come in, train, and go home. It's different everywhere. Find the club that works well for you, whether it be schutzhund, flyball, AKC obedience etc
 
#81 ·
When anyone new shows up to our club, I make a point to get them to come out on the field and watch protection routines up close (~10-20 feet) so I can explain what and why we are doing. I also usually cut my OB short (most done at home anyway) to help them learn how to do that
 
#83 ·
Clubs are usually exclusive. Some, more so than others. Suddenly, I can hear my mother:

* Take what you can use, discard the rest
* There will always be idiots/mean people - ignore them
* If you have questions, don't expect anyone to answer them before you've asked
* You don't like 'them', start your own group
* Be happy in whatever you choose
 
#84 ·
Originally Posted by holland
I really loved the Canadian clubs I visited -they took the time to make me feel welcome-and they seemed really close knit-it was an enjoyable experience-and the club members were experienced-also liked the last club I was in...but have been in clubs for quite a while that in this thread are described as friendly and outgoing and it was great when I did everything that they were saying but when I started (with their permission) to participate in another club it was a big problem-and people who I thought were my friends weren't. . I train AKC now and enjoy the people I train with-also enjoyed the last club I trained in But I am not really a club person...cause you are either one of the club or you're not ...
I absolutely have to agree with that. The new Club that is forming in Canada is absolutely awesome, open and welcoming. Their obedience is awesome and we just clicked right away. The only thing is that the helper is very very very green. So I won't do bitework because Nala is very green herself. So a green helper and a green dog... nope, not going to take that risk. ;)
But the obedience itself is absolutely amazing and I love how open and welcoming they are. I never really wanted to join a club but this one I'd actually join.

Also, they are involved with many other things, which I like and I had the honor to glimpse into the CKC Utility Obedience and I'm amazed how hard that actually is. For the first time I saw what is expected of a dog.

===============

As for the rest sniping at Marissa the way you did. Speaks volumes about yourself as well. If you sit in a Glasshouse, you shouldn't throw stones at someone else.
I know there is a big issue in SchH and people are trying to change that. If there wasn't a problem there wouldn't be so many people trying become active to seek change.
There is an Initiative running but apparently the SV doesn't like that and deemed it dishonorable to be a member of that Initiative. The Initiative is for clean sport, against corruption, for public relations etc.

Last big thing they were present at was the hearing against Judge Fiebig. Apparently he has given a title to a dog that never even trialed and word got out. They have yet to come to a verdict.
People will do a lot to get titles. They buy them, they get them written, they use methods that are abusive to get them faster.

So everything that Marissa heard, IS TRUE and everyone saying it isn't, is just blind. It's an everyday thing for me to see these stories pop up and I'm following these stories, following about what is going on within the SV.

One of the best friends of my family was accused of fraud by a "so called" legend, only problem was, that legend, isn't clean himself and nobody, nobody believed that my families friend would ever be involved in such a thing. That "legend" tried to cover his own tracks and accused someone else of fraud.

So many people have left the SV because of that it's not even funny.

Yeah, I can totally see a group doing what Marissa described. I can see the dirty looks and I can see a group using abusive methods to title dogs faster. To me, friendly clubs ARE an exception. Maybe over here it is the other way around and unfriendly clubs are the exception but this forum is a small amount of people from thousands of people actually doing it.

Again, unfriendliness, corruption, perception, abuse and rude behavior is very real in the Sport of Schutzhund and meanwhile, a lot of people have had enough and are not taking it any longer, which is why they started the Initiative.
 
#87 ·
I think Jane is correct. You don't just go to a club and say "Hey, I wanna join!" and you're in. You have to go through a process to be accepted. They want to make sure you're committed to the club. So 'not wasting the club's time' is EXACTLY the point. The only thing I find worrisome is that you could sometimes spend months with a club you want to join and maybe not get voted in. :(
 
#88 · (Edited)
Wow. I guess snobs is the right word.
That is exactly the kind of club I would NOT want to join. :mad:



As I said, I am a past-president of Bryan-College Station Retriever Club (which at one time held the record for hosting the largest AKC Retriever Hunt Test in the nation). We were also one of the only clubs in the nation to hold licensed Hunt Tests for both the AKC and HRC (that in particular was MY doing - I personally spear headed that effort).

We did have an application form - but only so that people who were suspended or kicked out of other clubs for cause could be kept out. All newcomers who wanted in, DID just 'show up and join".
 
#90 ·
It depends on each club but I know around here they do want people who are working towards trialing their dog in Sch. This for most clubs has to do with liability insurance they carry. While others may not agree but most clubs around here make everyone a provisional when they come to join to see if both party's agree there is a good fit and then move someone over from provisional after a trial period to permanent member. Its not fair to compare Sch training with Labs since their is added liability of training a dog to know when to bite.
 
#92 ·
That said, exceptions to this are very common - I have met some truly helpful, wonderful people in the field trail games and some remarkable bungholes in the hunt test games.
Same goes for SchH. There are some truly wonderful people out there and I've met some really good friends through the Sport and SAR. :)
 
#94 ·
TxFig, one 'problem' with SchH is that resources and time is limited. You sometimes only have one helper per club working the dogs. Trying to get everyone taken care of on a training day can be very, very tiring and if someone isn't showing commitment then yes, it is wasting valuable time.
It has nothing to do with 'snobbery' IMO. It is the lack of time/good helperwork. And there is more than the protection phase, so just getting thru tracking and obedience can eat away half a day of training. Things have to move efficiently and be organized.
I wish the people who are interested in the sport would look at it from the helper and TD's point of view. And as long as I'm wishing, I wish more would take on the role of mentoring new helpers and people would take advantage of the excellent talent that is aging out.
 
#98 ·
TxFig, one 'problem' with SchH is that resources and time is limited. You sometimes only have one helper per club working the dogs. Trying to get everyone taken care of on a training day can be very, very tiring and if someone isn't showing commitment then yes, it is wasting valuable time.
I KNOW the work it takes to put those on - I was the one doing them in my retriever club.

The solution is that the club needs MORE people in the club - not fewer.
Over time, the more newbie people they have, the more the newbies become EXPERIENCED. And the more experienced people a club has, the less the work load on any single experienced person.


The real question at stake here is this:

Just WHO is the club there for ?
You might be interested to know that the answer to that question is not unique to SCH clubs.... It is endemic to Retriever Clubs too (and by extension - I would guess ALL clubs). It was stated in this forum area that the # of SCH clubs is shrinking. Well this is true of all types of clubs.

Why?

It's not that the sport is loosing popularity. The number of people with dogs is at an all time high - and growing. I don't know the number of people running SCH/IPO events - but I know that the number of people entering Retriever hunt tests is growing (to the point that it is causing problems of it's own).

The answer to WHY is "because the clubs are not meeting the needs of everyone in the club."


In your club example above, the only people whose needs are deemed important are those who are "dedicated and committed." Well here's a news flash - NOBODY is dedicated and committed when they first get started. The end result of that kind of club is exactly what we're seeing - clubs shutting down.


The solution is exactly what I did back when I was president of my retriever club - I looked at the reasons why a new person would join a club and why an experienced person would remain in a club. And then I created a way for the club to satisfy those needs.

Did it work: you be the judge - while other clubs in my area were closing their doors, my club became the only one to host both the AKC Master National as well as the HRC International Grand. Ever.


I may not know anything about SCH or IPO. But I do know how to make a club succeed. And turning away newbies ain't it.
 
#95 ·
A previous poster made the point that there is two to three sides to a story....I went back and read the OP, I did not see anything about mistreatment by somebody wanting to join. Then someone else says they HEARD that this is the reception people get when they visit a club. A lot of speculation and innuendo to be painting the sport with a brush this wide. Do you know how snobby the show world is if you don't have a dog with the proper color or angles. C'mon folks....lets keep it real. The majority of SCH clubs are no more snobby than the average breed group.....some helpful people and some crabby people. Happens in everything. SCH is not exactly a perfect match for a shy timid dog or person, and both will probably be stressed in the environment because of the nature of the goals and concepts. Plenty of people have fun in these clubs, but it is something that you have to put yourself out equally in terms of commitment and patience as the club does in attracting new members. If the dog or the owner don't have the right temperament, then SCH is NOT going to be fun or probably possible. But then again, SCH is not for everyone that has a GS, and that doesn't make them snobs, it just means its not for that dog or that person. Jmo!
 
#96 ·
A club's priority is the club. That mostly means the members who have already invested a lot of time, money, and work into the club, but also means welcoming new members since we weren't all born knowing everything and won't all live forever. It's a fine balance and really depends on each club.

When I first started attending my flyball club I didn't know if I could join and it seemed like they already had plenty of people and good dogs, but now dogs have gotten old or injured, people have had things happen beyond their control and can't commit the time...now it's almost like we have to actively recruit some new members to survive whereas before, I was worried I was trying to get into a pretty mature group (as in, they had plenty of members, dogs, and experience without me).
 
#100 · (Edited)
TgFix....There is not always the resources to have over 12 teams per club(and some people may be working more than one dog) And I didn't say this, 'the only people whose needs are deemed important are those who are "dedicated and committed'... but in reality, those that don't show up regularly or don't show progress are a burden on an already stressed situation.
The ones getting ready to trial are the ones that are the most important, that is the truth, and as it should be. If you are not yet ready to trial, then the pressure to fix or clean up something isn't as big a deal.
Like I said, I wish more would see it from the helper/TD side, and not 'what can I get out of it' but what can I do to help!

And, by the way, when I began, you bet I was committed. I showed up every week and during the week, and tried to work on what I needed to throughout the week~and my goals aren't for the podium. I just got hooked/addicted, and enjoyed being a sponge to learn as much as I could. I also wanted to help out as much as possible so my club wouldn't feel that me, as a newbie was a burden to them.
 
#105 ·
THIS. I already feel like a burden, though... because of my handler errors with Grim. So I'm already requiring time, effort, etc. and I'm just a 'guest'. I'm eternally grateful. No one has to do this for a 'noob'. I, also, just want to soak up every bit of knowledge I can.
 
#101 ·
Why are we criticizing SchH clubs based on retriever hunt tests? I'm lost...

A helper can only physically work so many dogs in a day, especially days when it's 90s and humid and they have to wear certain gear to be safe. Many clubs already limit how many dogs current members can work, even before they limit how many members the club can support. It's fairly common for clubs to allow a member to work a second dog only after titling the first. The process of titling the first dog demonstrates the member's commitment to the club/sport and that they are well on their way with training and are not taking up a huge percentage of the club's time with multiple dogs. Clubs are also fighting daylight during the fall/winter/early spring.
 
#102 ·
You are VERY wrong about 'no one's that committed'! I drive over 2 hours to get to the club I'm going to. I went in crappy weather conditions, too. I'm committed enough to spend hundreds of dollars on equipment, training, etc. This is something I've wanted to do for YEARS. To get there on time when the tracking part starts, I'll be getting up at like 4am. Think I care?? All I want is to get accepted into that club and work my tail off (and Grim's) and contribute and help and be a part of something that I love. I have someone willing to hold my hand through the training, the issues, the learning... and I know NOTHING. That's a LOT of time this person is giving me!! I am thanking my lucky stars!! That's time that they are taking away from their own training, their own life, their own responsibilities to help me work through some issues and get things rolling. These clubs don't OWE anyone anything! The helper took his time to evaluate my dog. He took time to discuss my dog with me. Other club members also gave me their time to input on his eval and to TEACH me. They all had dogs to work. Their time is important. Yet, they ALL took the time to teach me. To let me in on ways to do things that may work better than what I've been doing.

I can also tell you, that helper took some hits! Have you ever had to catch a GSD coming at you? Had a dog come dirty into a blind? It's not as easy as they make it look. This guy I saw puts a LOT of effort into what he does. Watching the interaction between dog and helper... there's a 'dance' of sorts going on there that's pretty amazing to watch. Plus, he's evaluating each dog on every turn. Then, that feedback goes to the handler. It's not a wham-bam thing. Plus, many members have more than one dog. Sometimes it takes a few times to get things going right. I witnessed the members who were there working together like a well oiled machine. It's all for the love of it. BUT...everyone's time and effort is worth something. Why have a group busting their tails and then let someone in who is half hearted about it? It just won't work. It's not fair to the people in the club. So, yeah, you roll the dice that you'll get in. There IS a reason for it, though... and it's a good one!
 
#103 ·
Club dynamics may be the same but the mechanics are not. There simply is nothing within retriever training that remotely comes close to the level of physical exertion that a helper expends on a typical training day. Even for a small club.
 
#104 · (Edited)
As for commitment, that is true. The only reason that's keeping me back is gas money. We simply don't have that much money to dish out which is why I started my own business to earn that gas money so I can go on a regular basis. I'm driving three hours to see one of the best helpers out there. So for obedience I'm going to Canada now.

I was extremely commited to SAR, every weekend was packed with training. Now with Canada I can even make it twice a week for Obedience and Obedience IS an important part about SchH because if I don't progress in Obedience I won't make any overall progress in Bitework. That's the simple truth.

So why not make it mandatory for beginners to start with Obedience and Tracking before they get to do any bitework at all, that way you still have time for your old members and the new members can prove themselves.

Why not do it like SAR teams do? Everyone is so quick to jump on bitework because it's the coolest part, but let's be honest, without obedience, there is no solid bitework. If there is time for the new dogs, have them do bitework but other than that, I'd have them do tracking and bitework for at least half a year or year and build them up by doing prey-work whenever there is time?

Once the obedience is there, it's going to be a lot faster in bitework too.
 
#106 ·
I had a long post written and then realized that I would be arguing with a person who has stated they know NOTHING about SchH/IPO. Just not worth my time. I would rather help those who are actually interested in learning. :)
 
#108 ·
I think he's open to learning, but hasn't yet experienced going to a club. And I do agree with many points TgFix has made.
There is something to be said about a fresh perspective. Maybe after he's gone to a club he will enlighten us on how to be better.

"I created a way for the club to satisfy those needs."
can you share how?
 
#110 ·
I think he's open to learning, but hasn't yet experienced going to a club. And I do agree with many points TgFix has made.
There is something to be said about a fresh perspective. Maybe after he's gone to a club he will enlighten us on how to be better.

can you share how?
:thumbup:
 
#109 ·
apologies to the membership for making nasty generalisations about people i don't even know.

have to admit i got a bit of the chip on the shoulder from my experience of schuts and not being allowed to play just cos i didn't by a puppy from the TD. my problem not anyone else's and it was wrong to put negativity out there cos of my own issues.
 
#111 · (Edited)
Let me give you an example how it generally works in the German Clubs I've been to.

There are set training days for the BH group, puppy group and SchH group.

Let's say Saturdays is club training. The BH group is from 10-12 and the SchH group from 1300-1900.

The BH group is completely separate from SchH training, however it is held by the experienced SchH people and to everyone open that is interested in SchH. Before they get to join the SchH group, they have to show their commitment to overcome the obstacle of the BH and if they want, they are allowed to watch the SchH training.

They are also welcome to join the tracking. If SchH is their goal. However, bitework and the rest of the stuff they only get to do, once they've passed the BH.

So I really do not understand why there is such an issue with commitment. Once somebody passed the BH you can be sure that the person is committed and you don't have to worry about the helper being overworked for a while.

So why not opening a BH group, held by experienced handlers that are willing to volunteer. If these people come back you know they are committed and the dog gets the obedience it needs, you get club members and a better reputation.

And don't tell me it is imppossible. All you need is a good handler that already has a title or two that is willing to volunteer and set the time at a different day or before/after SchH training.

It's really not that hard to organize that and you don't need a helper for BH training.
 
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