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OKAY, all you SchH Snobs!

12K views 137 replies 42 participants last post by  Smithie86 
#1 ·
(And I say that lovingly/joking. Kind of).

We used to have our flyball practices at 9 am every Sunday. Until the ScH snobs decided they didn't want us using it.
They started getting there at 8:30 so we had to find another park to practice at.
This wouldn't bother me, normally (because it WAS their usual park before us), but when they found out we were using it, they started coming for training earlier so we had to relocate.
Not to mention, they're just flat-out rude.

If we show up while they're setting up, they will shoot us dirty looks the whole time. (We would stay there to wait for everyone to get there so we could all collaborate to find another park).

When I was asking my breeder about clubs around here (because when I get my GSD, I REALLY do want to do SchH). She told me she wouldn't recommend any of the SchH clubs out here. (She does PSA).

I've also heard that (in general), they don't like newbies, they don't like people who don't intend on trialing/titling their dogs, they don't care for non-breeders, I've heard some clubs use less-than-ethical training methods to get the dogs titled quicker....
(Mind you, this is all what I've HEARD).

What the heck, guys? I wonder how many others are scared away from trying out the sport just from heresay....
I'm not going to decide if I'll do it or not based on rumors, but I will admit - I'm quite intimidated to go out and see clubs train and talk to them.

(This pertains to the local clubs).
 
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#35 ·
I've done a few flyball drills at my SchH club on SchH equipment. Sometimes I will do a few turn drills off the bottom of the A-frame if it's set really steep and no one else is working on retrieves. We train on private land and no one else does flyball or cares whether I do it or not (or at least if they care they keep their mouth shut).
 
#37 ·
& don't go to a trial expecting friendliness! Thats when stress levels are higher and people aren't in their right frame of mind.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Before too long, I'll visit all of the local clubs and watch them train. I don't care when people are focused and in the zone (obviously - they need to concentrate on what they're doing).
It bothers me when they're rude and hateful.

Hopefully, when I go to visit other clubs, I can come back and share positive experiences.

In defense of dog sports (and anything, really) there's the good and the bad.
In flyball, there's snobby, hateful, cold people too. I've seen someone yank their staffie up by the collar, punch him in the head and scream bloody murder at him for going around jumps at a DEMO. Someone I was sitting next to in the crowd said something along the lines of how abusive dog sports are.... I looked at him and told him that person has no business being in flyball, I'm on another team, he loves it, etc. I made it clear I was also disgusted and horrified at her behavior.
There's bad apples in everything.

I just hope there's one club in the area I can mesh with.

ETA:
Being in a dog sport, I can completely understand that they're focused on the task at hand. Flyball tournaments can be chaotic, stressful, and exhausting, but I always have a BLAST. I want to be able to experience that same excitement if/when I pursue SchH.
I like dog sports, not to prove that my dog is awesome (because I already know that), not to prove anything to anyone... I do it to have FUN with my dog. To strengthen our bond. To give him something HE loves to do, besides fetch. To channel that drive and energy into something great.

I want to be competitive, but I want to have fun doing it and my dog have even more fun.
 
#44 ·
Before too long, I'll visit all of the local clubs and watch them train. I don't care when people are focused and in the zone (obviously - they need to concentrate on what they're doing).
It bothers me when they're rude and hateful.

Hopefully, when I go to visit other clubs, I can come back and share positive experiences.

In defense of dog sports (and anything, really) there's the good and the bad.
In flyball, there's snobby, hateful, cold people too. I've seen someone yank their staffie up by the collar, punch him in the head and scream bloody murder at him for going around jumps at a DEMO. Someone I was sitting next to in the crowd said something along the lines of how abusive dog sports are.... I looked at him and told him that person has no business being in flyball, I'm on another team, he loves it, etc. I made it clear I was also disgusted and horrified at her behavior.
There's bad apples in everything.

I just hope there's one club in the area I can mesh with.

ETA:
Being in a dog sport, I can completely understand that they're focused on the task at hand. Flyball tournaments can be chaotic, stressful, and exhausting, but I always have a BLAST. I want to be able to experience that same excitement if/when I pursue SchH.
I like dog sports, not to prove that my dog is awesome (because I already know that), not to prove anything to anyone... I do it to have FUN with my dog. To strengthen our bond. To give him something HE loves to do, besides fetch. To channel that drive and energy into something great.

I want to be competitive, but I want to have fun doing it and my dog have even more fun.
Are you in the Phoenix area? I visited a club there back in May or June I believe. They were very nice and I had a great time. I think for me it helped that I'm a helper and thiers happend to be sick that day. So I got lots of extra work:D. It was great for me as I got to learn from a Judge they have in there group and work dogs I hadn't seen before. At the end of the day I asked their opinion of my dog. I got what I asked for. Some of you may take it as an insult but it was an opinion and observation of what that particular person saw in the dog. I work my dog hard and for many hours a week so it's no supprise to hear what people tell me. So if you can't take the truth about your dog then maybe it isn't the place for you.

When people would visit my schH club I really don't have time to talk to them. I have work to do and that's what I'm doing. If they ask questions and get involved then that helps but I'm not going to go out of my way to talk to them. We have lots of people come out once. Then we never see them again. The more interested they are the more people will talk to them.

I lost my train of thought so I'm going to end here haha
 
#39 ·
I took the post all in good fun lol. I don't think the red carpet is rolled out in any dog sport but, I never went for the people just the dog. Most new people work their dogs last, just like when you start a job you don't start out as the CEO but work from the bottom up. If you are really serious about working a dog you can and will :) and yoiu will meet some really great people and will learn the ones to stay away from.
 
#40 ·
I guess I have been very lucky. While I have met some not so pleasant people in my 21 years in SchH I have found most of those to be the people that have done nothing. I have met people like that, though, in many of the dogs sport areas (30 years total) and even more so in the horse show world (30 years). The majority of the people I have trained with and the clubs I have trained with have treated me and my dogs very well. Funny, in all these years not a single person has ever tried to sell me a dog.

My club does its best to be welcoming to all visitors and new people interested in SchH no matter the breed or type of dog (well, other than dogs that are totally unsuitable). Most never come back because they see the length of the day and realize there is no way they could dedicate that kind of time. Or they would rather pay to play, show up for their time and leave.

I know there are groups out there that are not so good. I have seen the clubs where everyone owns dogs from the TD and if they don't they soon will (because the dog they currently have isn't any good). I just haven't found them to be much of a problem because I never allowed them to be (and I was very shy when I started).
 
#80 ·
I have got to say, after twice being treated like I wasn't there and didn't matter at other clubs, I was THRILLED to visit yours!! I was very impressed with the fact that every question I asked was answered, suggestions were given to me about all kinds of things that were very helpful, and I NEVER felt like I was 'intruding'. :D I didn't really think clubs like that existed after my previous experiences. It made me even more excited about the sport and participation. "Waiting" was NO big deal, because I got to see a lot and learn a lot. I wasn't just off in the corner. I think if all clubs were like this, it would be great. I count myself one lucky duck to have experienced this!
 
#41 ·
Harmony, that is a very good point. I probably have not found as many problems as others because, while I enjoy the social aspect of clubs, I do this because I love working these dogs.
 
#43 ·
I live in Missouri and was approached by someone who does ScH training. I have her card and want to keep in touch given her offer for morning walks with her and her GSD. She told me that ANY dog is welcome in her club.

My thoughts may change on the matter, but for now, I have no interest in ScH. *I* am not disciplined enough. Like I said tough...I am not ruling it out.
 
#45 ·
I think if someone can't take an experienced third party's opinion on their dog, then they can't improve themselves OR the dog.

I'm about 45 minutes to an hour away from Phoenix. Do you recall the name of the club?
I think I'd go to a few training days and just sit, watch, and take notes at a few different clubs. Then go and ask any questions I may have for 'em.
 
#47 · (Edited)
Come on people. Let's be real for a minute.

EVERYTHING she heard IS TRUE!

That is how SchH is. No need to give it a paint job. Are there clubs out there like that? YES!

And the behavior practiced does NOT surprise me the least bit!

Not every club is like that but there are enough out there that are just like that. If you have a great club, that is the exception!

Also, using not ethical methods to get the dogs titled faster? OF COURSE! Whenever money and ego is involved that's when methods are being used that are not in the interest of the dog.

It is SchH, afterall!

Things are changing to the better but it is a slow, slow very slow change and everyone should be advocating for a clean sport and impeccable behavior!

Why do you think people are trying to get the sport banned everywhere you look? It's because of people like that! So no need to avoid the truth. ONLY if we face the truth and change the attitude, things can change. And because people don't like visitors, and are that secretive we have the reputation that nothing has changed because only people that have something to hide wouldn't want visitors at their club! That is how people think.
 
#49 ·
Why do you think people are trying to get the sport banned everywhere you look? It's because of people like that! So no need to avoid the truth. ONLY if we face the truth and change the attitude, things can change. And because people don't like visitors, and are that secretive we have the reputation that nothing has changed because only people that have something to hide wouldn't want visitors at their club! That is how people think.
Are you finding this to be true in the US or are you talking about Germany?
 
#48 · (Edited)
I've had the same experience as Lisa, but I'm in the same area. I have trained with and/or trialed at eight different SchH/protection sport clubs in the past five years. I've never once felt the club was being hostile to me. Because the group I originally trained with was not a sanctioned club, I've never had the luxury of trialing with my own club/home field and often have been the *only* person in the event that was not a member of the host club and usually those clubs happened to be the most welcoming towards me. A while back I signed up for an event at a club in a really rough area. As usual I was the only non club member participating. This was a club of big, burly guys that all owned Rottweilers and Cane Corso type dogs. Their TD has a reputation for being very militant in his training style (toward the people not the dogs). Here I was with my little GSD bitch 50lb soaking wet, the only female (human) entered in the event, the only visitor, only one year into dog ownership and training but these guys were some of the nicest and most welcoming I have ever met.

I find that clubs who are training on public land or land they don't own tend to be the more "secretive" type and it's usually not why people think. The group I used to train with did not own the land we trained on and were receiving a huge favor from a local police department. We also sometimes trained indoors at a facility also receiving a huge favor from that owner. As such we had to be much more strict about when we could allow visitors and who those visitors were. We could not just let people come and go as they pleased since we had to be responsible for who was there, not only for our own sakes but for the people who actually owned the facility (and the liability). I used to coordinate the visitors and let me tell you for every 20 people that contacted me we had maybe one ever show up. We allowed visitors once a month and always gave them directions and made it very clear when/where to show up and almost all of them never did. Our priority was our members first so we could not be distracted by a revolving door of people coming and going as they pleased with no real commitment to the club or the sport. Most of the clubs I have visited or trained with have been extremely tolerant of these types of people, moreso than I am!
 
#50 ·
Lies, I think it makes a difference if you are already in the sport and if you aren't.

One thing I have noticed in SchH is that the people here on the forum are an exception with being involved in so many venues. A lot of times, if you are doing RH or Flyball, Agility, Obedience... these people are smiled upon and not in a good way, especially by a lot of oldtimers who just don't know any better.

If a dog isn't good enough for SchH... just sell him to do RH, that he'll be good enough for. They don't take anyone else serious but themselves.

Also, what you perceive as friendly and outgoing may not be perceived as friendly and outgoing for an outstanding person that doesn't know the sport.

The sport does demand a lot of discipline and that discipline may come across as rough and hostile. That is why outstanding people have such a big issue. Also, if SchH people do not take other venues serious. And the way I grew into it, offering Flyball on a SchH field, IS an exceptional thing and very open minded. I've never even seen anything else except for basic obedience lessons, maybe Agility or RH.

Clubs change, but it is a slow change. Maybe Germany can actually learn something from the USA. And I mean that.
 
#52 ·
I find that clubs who are training on public land or land they don't own tend to be the more "secretive" type and it's usually not why people think. The group I used to train with did not own the land we trained on and were receiving a huge favor from a local police department
When training on public land there is no control over who visits/spectates. We were right along railroad tracks and the trains would sometimes stop traffic for 10 minutes or longer. Our training was the entertainment for the people waiting for the tracks to clear.
And we did have to be aware of our training during that time, especially if we were doing protection. At least being on police property kept many away, they thought it was the LEO K9's working.
 
#53 ·
When training on public land there is no control over who visits/spectates. We were right along railroad tracks and the trains would sometimes stop traffic for 10 minutes or longer. Our training was the entertainment for the people waiting for the tracks to clear.
And we did have to be aware of our training during that time, especially if we were doing protection. At least being on police property kept many away, they thought it was the LEO K9's working.

Ditto, and when someone is telling a spectator that they cannot watch something while it's been done in the public on public land, that is perceived as downright rude because you are not the owner and shouldn't be out there training in the public if you do not want the public to watch. Throwing dirty looks doesn't help either.

And that is where the perceived hostility is coming from.
 
#54 ·
I have trained with at least 5 different groups of people in the last 4 years and have never experienced any hostility. I have trialed outside of my own club twice and on my home field twice. Away from my field, I experienced extremely friendly and helpful people, and the people who trialed at my home club had nothing but good things to say.

At our last trial, a visitor came to watch the protection phase. She also brought out her 5-month old puppy onto the trial grounds during the trial, although there were signs posted on the club website, facebook site, and the property grounds that dogs not competing were to be kept off of the trial grounds (we had a separate lot for non competitors). She called the sport "snobby" and the club "rude" and "elitist" because she was asked to remove her out of control dog from the fence line of the trial grounds.

So I guess if you have thin skin like she apparently did, then yes, our club could be considered rude and nasty and elitist...but if thats really the case, then so be it.
 
#56 ·
Dog sport and especially the ones with bite work requires a lot of commitment and TIME. Four years ago we had a perfect SDA club. All ages of people, all types of dogs, ( from working imports to AKC and breed select champions...Dobes), and 10 to 12 out of 15 people show up every training session. If new people showed up they were more than welcome to stay and watch and as president, I would make it my business to greet them and introduce them. But our training day was from 10 am to 3 pm on Sat. and 6pm to 10pm on Wed. So if you visited between those hours, I would come to greet you, but then we have to go back to training. Now if you are there at end of session I and others were relaxed and would spend time. Often people came that only planned to watch for maybe an hour or two, really wanted someone to spend time with them and their dog and listen to the wonderful traits of their dog. Can do this after training, but not doing training....also members not on the field are STRONGLY encouraged to PAY attention to the training on the field, and not be engaged in non training conversations that can be distracting or maybe cause them to miss a teaching moment. So again, if the new person isn't willing to sit and watch, then they could perceive us as not being accommodating . Now if a person shows the commitment to stay, or makes arrangements to come early or after training to show their dog and discuss our club, we become optimistic. But it is difficult to show more than passing hospitality on training days during training hours.
 
#58 ·
:confused:


This is very true.

Think of how people see the sport. All they see is dogs going after a man in a sleeve. Have the dog wear an e-collar and do one whelp because he got zapped, than you are already "torturing" the dogs.
Have the dog wear a prong collar and they see you do a correction without knowing what the dog got the correction for, you are "torturing" the dogs.

Have the dog take a helper down, you are training a man-eater.

It is all about perception and if no one is there to actually explain why this or that happens, while people are watching, than that is where the bad reputation is coming from.

Also, then you have people that don't care if the public is watching and do the helicopter on a prong. Take out the cattle prod or boast about storied of how they corrected their dog or how rough and tough their dogs are and that they cannot walk off the field without at least one injury.

SchH is a complicated sport. Not to us, but it is to the public. The lines between abuse and training are sometimes very slim and blurry. What we see as a correction is for many others abuse.

Outside people don't know what we are training for. They don't know that this is sport and that we have some of the best well behaved dogs you can meet (of course there are always exceptions). All they see is that they are trained to bite people.
 
#59 ·
I guess my experience has been that the public does not care about SchH and has no idea it even exists. Jason, Falon and I used to train at public parks (including bitework) and no one ever stopped to watch. One time my husband was in the blind for Jason's dog (my husband is not a helper but has done some basic helperwork so he can stand in a blind) and some guy made a comment about our "falcon". He saw a vulture in the sky and honestly though the sleeve was one of those gloves people wear to handle falcons!

I've seen some bad attitudes and poor sportsmanship but only from within the sport and usually from the same people and in pressure filled circumstances like a trial. I do not agree that the general public has a bad opinion of the sport and wants to ban it. None of my non-SchH friends even have any idea what SchH is or if I've told them, they do not care. A few of them think it's cool but not cool enough to want to watch or participate themselves.

If anyone has a bad opinion of the sport without being involved I think it tends to be other dog people that subscribe to more extreme training methods. Not extreme as in harsh, but extreme as in they will ONLY do things a certain way and anyone who does it any other way (or any combination of methods) is dumb or abusive or clueless. It's other dog fanciers that seem to be the enemy of SchH in the USA.
 
#61 ·
I guess my experience has been that the public does not care about SchH and has no idea it even exists. Jason, Falon and I used to train at public parks (including bitework) and no one ever stopped to watch. One time my husband was in the blind for Jason's dog (my husband is not a helper but has done some basic helperwork so he can stand in a blind) and some guy made a comment about our "falcon". He saw a vulture in the sky and honestly though the sleeve was one of those gloves people wear to handle falcons!

I've seen some bad attitudes and poor sportsmanship but only from within the sport and usually from the same people and in pressure filled circumstances like a trial. I do not agree that the general public has a bad opinion of the sport and wants to ban it. None of my non-SchH friends even have any idea what SchH is or if I've told them, they do not care.
There is a media campaign going on in Germany to ban the sport. It was going on in Switzerland, Austria. From my undersstanding, Schutzhund is banned in the City of Vienna already.

There is a lot of lobbying going on in Europe, against Schutzhund and people are trying to be active and change the sports public appearance because people have a wrong perception about the sport and most of the time there is truth to that perception. Because there IS abuse going on in the sport, there are hostile clubs out there and people are working on changing all that but the Unity is just not there as you can find it in other venues. People are arguing what public relation work actually is and should look like.

They are talking about a scientific approach but the public doesn't care about a scientific approach to explain Schutzhund, all they care about is that they don't get bit by that big bad German Shepherd trained in bite work and how these animals behave in every day life. They don't want to read about all that scientific stuff. People are emotional and they become more and more emotional each day.

So yeah, when Konotashi posted that entrance post, I was not surprised at all because it is the truth. Plain and simple truth. That is how people feel about the sport, rigged trials, abusive methods to get the dogs trialed faster, bought titles also called (written trials i.e. dog never trialed but still got the title and there actually is a case about that going on in Germany right now).

That is why we are trying to change something and started the website "www.schutzhundesport.org" because we are trying to change that perception with the personal experience of schutzhund dog handlers. Because that channel, running the media campaign is extremely biased and will not stop until they succeeded in what they want, ban the sport!
 
#60 ·
Well, if someone in that park saw some whip/stick hits you'd probably be called out or called on if they were AR enthusiasts.
 
#62 · (Edited)
I really loved the Canadian clubs I visited -they took the time to make me feel welcome-and they seemed really close knit-it was an enjoyable experience-and the club members were experienced-also liked the last club I was in...but have been in clubs for quite a while that in this thread are described as friendly and outgoing and it was great when I did everything that they were saying but when I started (with their permission) to participate in another club it was a big problem-and people who I thought were my friends weren't. . I train AKC now and enjoy the people I train with-also enjoyed the last club I trained in But I am not really a club person...cause you are either one of the club or you're not ...
 
#65 ·
The public I know has no knowledge of either word/acronym and could not care less what we call our sport just like I could not care less if the "NBA" became the "NABA" or something like that. Their club/org, their name, what would I care? I still refer to it as Schutzhund and our club still has "Schutzhund" in the title. I do not mind calling the titles "IPO" since it was silly to have half a dozen titles that are the exact same thing.
 
#66 ·
My point is the change in wording/political influence, of course it changes nothing. So why not just stay transparent? Say ok instead of bite, whatever.....the dog still knows when its time to bite!
 
#68 ·
I don't get it either. Even people I know who have taken German don't know what "voran" means in the context of my dog training so it means nothing to them whether I'm commanding the dog to bite or go out or not saying anything at all, but I guess it's a bigger issue in Europe.
 
#69 ·
Yeah, it is unbelievable how much the perception has changed within a few years.

It is about the abuse and that Schutzhund is outdated because "you just don't need it any longer and it is a thing of the past".

The things people associate the sport with is unbelievable.

Military, Militant people, even right winged nutjobs.
It is abusive and we train attack dogs that should only be in the hands of the police. etc. etc. etc.

The biggest thing is the abuse and attack dog argument.
 
#70 ·
I had a similar experience with the SchH club I went to years ago. I had contacted the TD via email and asked if I could come out. He was very nice and very welcoming in the email. Once I got there, though, I was pretty much ignored. No one greeted me, no one talked to me, the TD was on the field working. That was fine, as I was busy watching the other dogs train anyway. I was just happy to be there and wait my turn. I had a lot to learn at that point and was soaking it in. I was trying to politely overhear conversations about dogs and training, but otherwise, I didn't try to butt in.

Things didn't get much better in the following weeks. People seemed to enjoy their tight-knit club and didn't seem interested in letting anyone else (or at least me) come into the inner circle. Again, okay with me--I was there to train and learn, not necessarily to socialize, though I would have liked to have asked some questions I didn't quite feel comfortable. I would patiently wait 2-3 hours to get my turn, train for 15 minutes, and then everybody went their separate ways.

As it happened, the dog I had at the time became ill with cancer and we had to stop training. I didn't miss the 3 hours of travel time to the club and back, and enjoyed having my Thursdays and Sundays back, but was still interested in SchH.

When it came time to train a new pup, I came back to the same club and the same thing happened. No one really wanted to talk with me. I even had a sable this time. :) I would try to chit-chat and make small talk, and ask questions whenever I thought it was polite to do so. Some folks were more willing to talk than others, but the overall feeling I got was that of being in the way.

Eventually, I decided to go with a different training group, rather than the SchH club. Why? I just seemed to fit in better with the new group, people seemed happy to see me, I was included, and I got a lot more actual training. Plus, the new group was only a 40 minute drive each way rather than 90.

So, I can easily see why newbies would be put off of SchH. I personally could have stuck with the club if the circumstances had been different. But I was spending literally all day driving and waiting for 15 minutes of training, and in the end, I felt like my time could be better spent at the new training group, and no one would miss me if I stopped going to the SchH club.

SchH people often complain that newbies never want to stick with the program, so why bother with them? It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
#71 · (Edited)
The club I joined was somewhat that way with me, other than the person I actually went there to train with. The helper pulled the "do you know who I am?" His ego is pretty fragile, and he was a bit put off that I wasn't there for his *expertise* but someone else's. We never really clicked, and I left when the person I was there for quit(It was her property we trained on, too)....not sure how that club is fairing now. And the helper constantly had guests coming to club to work their dogs so he could make $. As I was a newb, I was not priority, even though I thought I was generous in tipping him.
 
#72 · (Edited)
Thanks OP, the thread almost made me chuckle. You can, certainly, replace the "SchH" in "SchH snobs" with almost anything in life.
Exactly. Interesting that the people complaining have described themselves and their level of sensitivity, which makes things rather clear to me. Meaning, there are always three sides to a story but only one usually is told.
The world is not going to change to adjust to you, I can pretty much assure you of that. It should be a case where people make adjustments to how they deal with things but nowadays, it seems if something makes them uncomfortable, they want it eliminated or they will demonize it on the internet. Out here in LA , the rogue cop in a grey truck killed three people and the police started shooting at a number of grey/blue trucks. What caused that? Fear. The people they shot had done nothing and this is how I read these threads. Everyone in SchH is in a grey truck because the people complaining are shy or intimidated, whatever.
The SchH club started getting there earlier out of spite and to chase the others off. There can be no other reason right? Yeah, I am getting old and tired of people. I have the urge to call people "Hun" and "Sonny" and it is not rooted in affection.

When I started in SchH 35 years ago, some of the people in the club I went to behaved that way, others did not. The worst offender is now one of my best friends and I could not have learned what I have without knowing her. Sometimes, just hanging in there and having a tad of character and strength, changes things . When I started working at new jobs, some of the people behaved that way, while others did not. Sure didn't quit my job because of it.

I have no doubt people in SchH clubs can be unfriendly but the people complaining usually show a rather significant level of "unfriendly" themselves and in this thread, that is quite clear. We have someone repeating what they heard. That's when my BS meter goes off. There is a level of immaturity in this and I will tell you one thing. What I have learned the most in all my years of dog training, ( and as a Director of a large retail establishment), is about PEOPLE. I can read them better than the dogs and as Keith pointed out, people get tired of the same types showing up.
They have learned to recognize them and are not ready to invest their time, ( which believe it or not, is as valuable as yours), in people who have no real interest or the first time they don't like something, take to the internet to complain about them. Sorry I don't sound "friendly"...SchH trainer ya know.
Back to knitting.
 
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