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-   -   A Question about the purpose and intent of ScH? (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/196433-question-about-purpose-intent-sch.html)

codmaster 12-16-2012 12:59 AM

A Question about the purpose and intent of ScH?
 
If a ScH dog is truly being trained in protection - why would the training be so sleeve oriented to the point where the dog (in the local club that i am in now) is trained to be pretty much oriented to the sleeve (even when the helper sheds the sleeve and the dog then runs off the field or sometimes just carries it around the field)?

Is it simply more of a game now than true protection work?

Would a ScH trained dog be more (or less if the perp doesn't have a sleeve on) or less likely to really protect the owner?

I am assuming with this question that the dog itself has the courage to fight and is not shy or soft or a spook, of course.



I have recently returned to ScH after an absence from it for over 25 years and it just seems much much different. I.E. no temperament test of new dogs for one thing to begin the bite work

llombardo 12-16-2012 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codmaster (Post 2656603)
I.E. no temperament test of new dogs for one thing to begin the bite work

I think that during the evaluation process they watch for things that would make a good candidate. I know when we went for ours they watched how she was with other dogs, people, prey drive, etc. While I was having a conversation with one of the women there, she told me that years ago this sport was the test for temperament...I don't know how true that is.

cliffson1 12-16-2012 02:08 AM

:thinking::thinking::thinking:

carmspack 12-16-2012 03:02 AM

codmaster look at this thread -- http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...d-helpers.html

and go back and find posts by Anne Kent - VANDAL - who describes dogs from days gone by who would act just like "Journey" .

robk 12-16-2012 08:45 AM

Not all dogs are the same. Nor are they trained the same. Some dogs would just as soon carry your arm or leg off the field but they are still only allowed to carry the sleeve.

wolfstraum 12-16-2012 09:28 AM

In most clubs that I have been in/to, dogs are 1. genetically programmed to be "prey monsters" and 2. trained all in prey -

it falls to the handler/owner to either correct the training (and good luck with THAT in many clubs!!!) to test the dog. Personally, my female would spit out and go over the sleeve to the helper who felt this was a problem to correct....we did teach her to work in prey on that helper....but it did not change her genetics, and as an older dog, worked on a few Czechs, Dean C., Marcus, Bob, and other experienced helpers, it is obvious that she has true social aggression and strength.....

Thus, it falls to the breeder to understand what he sees, and breed selectively to bring the upcoming litter into balance.

But the 'extreme prey' dogs are what is highly sought for sport by most, and thus the IMO downward spiral of temperament and nerves

Unfortunately, too many dogs, especially those who are "high sport" dogs have no real social aggression.....the extreme prey exhibited by many sport dogs is what you have genetically....and those are the winning lines, the popular lines....as a buyer, esp a novice, these are the dogs and kennels that recommended constantly and IMO this is an issue that is just as much a black hole for the breed as the lack of courage in the show lines and the lack of everything work oriented in the ASL.

There are dogs out there who have and will pass on social aggression. Chuck Dorneberger Bach is a prime example....I have seen several of his progeny from a female of my own breeding who is a mostly prey dog.....they are much more balanced in aggression/prey than average.

As with everything - the letters after the name do not mean anything without knowledge of the dog's character.

Lee

Liesje 12-16-2012 10:32 AM

You'd have to ask each individual trainer or club, I suppose. I don't always train my dogs with sleeves so I guess I can't really answer your questions. I train to bite what is presented and in SchH that's an arm but without a sleeve they've bitten armpits, collar bones, and arms (from front or back). The only thing I don't encourage is leg bites, I just don't like that even though in other sports that's all a dog is trained to bite. I don't know why someone would train a dog to only care about a sleeve and call it "protection".

msvette2u 12-16-2012 11:23 AM

Quote:

I don't know why someone would train a dog to only care about a sleeve and call it "protection".
That's what it seems like takes place, at least the club/s local to me.
I can't see how this applies to real life scenarios. It seems like a game that the dog likes, so they do it.

carmspack 12-16-2012 11:47 AM

I have found this to be true "In most clubs that I have been in/to, dogs are 1. genetically programmed to be "prey monsters" and 2. trained all in prey -

it falls to the handler/owner to either correct the training (and good luck with THAT in many clubs!!!) to test the dog"

ah me, so true "....but it did not change her genetics, and as an older dog ----- it is obvious that she has true social aggression and strength.....:" this is exactly what shone the light on a certain dogs' power and clear mind -- a decoy who knew and loved "those" kinds of dogs and then impressed all by the intensity , yet immediate recovery of the dog to a neutral zone .

second this "But the 'extreme prey' dogs are what is highly sought for sport by most, and thus the IMO downward spiral of temperament and nerves "

Wolfstraum is on a roll , this is not the first time these ideas have been presented by she, myself , Anne the Vandal . "
Unfortunately, too many dogs, especially those who are "high sport" dogs have no real social aggression.....the extreme prey exhibited by many sport dogs is what you have genetically....and those are the winning lines, the popular lines....as a buyer, esp a novice, these are the dogs and kennels that recommended constantly and IMO this is an issue that is just as much a black hole for the breed as the lack of courage in the show lines and the lack of everything work oriented in the ASL. "

Let me add another dilema arising out of the extreme prey type dog that looks so impressive for their speed -- these dogs also get chosen by many a police department , they do test out well , and the prey and the ball drive relied on for motivation are "over the top" . Problem is that with this we also see a big drop in the dog doing public relations , ability to work in close quarters , crowds , schools etc, wrongful bites, not capping, and I believe a foreshortened working career because of stresses to health and overall longevity.

true "That's what it seems like takes place, at least the club/s local to me.
I can't see how this applies to real life scenarios. It seems like a game that the dog likes, so they do it."

msvette2u 12-16-2012 11:55 AM

So dogs that are expected to bite for a living so to speak, for a Police Dept., for instance, how does their training differ so they are sure-fire biters, that will bring down the bad guy?


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