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Old 12-18-2012, 10:43 AM   #81 (permalink)
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The intention for many is probably just to compete in a sport for fun and glory, if the dog is a real "protectiondog" or not is less important. As mentioned it´s also maybe more controversial in some countries/places if some newbie or "macho-man" insist his sportdog must also be a real protectiondog, especially if this also involves traininmethods that are less nice for the dogs.

A dog defending the offspring, territory etc is fitting the definition of defencedrive in my opinion

Good Post. This sums up my expectations out of the sport for me and my dog.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:46 AM   #82 (permalink)
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"the reward, the bite, comes from the dog attentively guarding and barking at the helper" -- how would that strength be developed and rewarded if the dog were NOT given a bite as a reward ?
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:49 AM   #83 (permalink)
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"There will ALWAYS be a working German Shepherd." are you sure about that .
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:53 AM   #84 (permalink)
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"There will ALWAYS be a working German Shepherd." are you sure about that .
As long as there are people like you, Cliffson, Wildhaus Kennels, Blackthorn, Wolfstraum, Olgameister, Staatsmacht, Kassler Kreuz etc.
YES, I'm sure about that.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:59 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Lemme give you one of the reasons.

In Germany SchH has a tough time to survive and the public looks at SchH dogs as attack dogs, even though there has never been an incident of a SchH dog going after people in Germany, at least not that I am aware of.
BSL is very, very, very much alive in Germany and a lot of people are constantly questioning why the GSD is not on the list. If you have a "list dog" like a pit bull, depending on where you live, you WILL pay up to a 1000 Euros a year in dog tax to keep that dog (you have to pay dog tax to keep a dog in Germany).

So the clubs are trying to show that the dogs are not attack dogs, that they are sleeve oriented and that the public is safe from these "unstable Monsters". That training methods are no longer what they used to be, because Schutzhund used to be a hard and brutal sport and therefor does not have a very good reputation with rescuers and that while there are still oldtimers out there training with compulsion, you can't win that way and you have to have a happy dog in order to survive the new system.

Public pressure, whether we like it or not. IS a reason, why dogs are sleeve oriented these days.
Thanks for the insider insight! I never would have thought that to be the case in Germany (don't know why not, but it would never have occurred to me).
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:09 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Bull...If the dog is that *strong* he should be pushing for that fight as soon as they come into the blind. That's the whole premise to teaching the hold and bark....the reward, the bite, comes from the dog attentively guarding and barking at the helper. The dog should feel like they own the helper as soon as they round the find blind and that includes barking, another form of countering for the dog.

In the grand scheme of things do you think it's going to matter to someone if they get bit with 250psi of jaw pressure it's going to matter what drive the dog happens to be in at that point in time?
THIS!!!

The strong dog can come to the blind looking for a fight, expecting a fight that on his experience is always there and is fun for the dog. When the helper is neutral, looking at the sky, the dog challenges the helper through barking then if the helper retreats (slight body language can even be enough for the dog) that can be as rewarding as a bite, where the dog is rewarded with the fight he was looking for, not the sleeve itself. Personally, that is what I want to see, I don't need a helper being threatening to the dog because I want the dog fighting for the joy of the fight, not because he feels his life is at stake.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:12 AM   #87 (permalink)
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As long as there are people like you, Cliffson, Wildhaus Kennels, Blackthorn, Wolfstraum, Olgameister, Staatsmacht, Kassler Kreuz etc.
YES, I'm sure about that.
We need to breed them, because they are getting old quickly
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:15 AM   #88 (permalink)
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For me schutzhund isn't about whether or not the dogs of today are the same as the dogs of yesterday. Or if the training today is the same as the training of yesterday. I wasn't around back then. But I am here now and my dog and I are enjoying where we are together.
I am assuming this is directed at what I said since I did the most talking about the differences we see now vs before. I was trying to answer the question posed in the title of the thread.
I realize most people don't care or just want to have fun. That's fine but that's not all they are doing. They are , most of the time, claiming how important SchH is, that is is somehow maintaining character in the dogs and so on. Maybe to a degree but when things are done as they are now, it has the effect of changing things in a not so positive way and that has occurred.
We have a little debate going on about the blind. I will offer this:
While I can agree with what Keith said, I look at it a bit differently and once again, it goes back to how much things have changed. Now we are doing things in the blind so the dog is not helped to become aggressive. Why they feel the need to do that speaks volumes...to me anyway. Like Keith said, they should come in there in the right frame of mind. However, If they do come in that way, how well they can contain it becomes the test. That means they can think clearly enough to not "attack" a person who is standing still, whether he is looking at them or not. That was kind of what we used to be looking for anyway. It is not enough if a dog is aggressive , the rest has to come with it or they are simply a junk yard dog. A dog who "brings it" into the blind is rather obvious, whether the helper is looking at him or not. Clearly, we are not seeing enough of those dogs, so, the judges/rules are doing this kind of stuff. I personally, would rather see SchH allow a less aggressive dog look well....less aggressive,( and they will even if looking at them "helps), than to help a dog who can't contain his aggression and fight. I just would like people to realize what SchH was for. It DID have a purpose and mostly, it wasn't about seeing whether dogs were aggressive enough. It was about seeing if they had the rest of what is necessary in dogs bred to protect..
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:20 AM   #89 (permalink)
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Thanks for the insider insight! I never would have thought that to be the case in Germany (don't know why not, but it would never have occurred to me).
There is a huge shift. While there are plenty of Schutzhund Clubs out there depending on where you live and what the reputation of those "oldtimers" were, there is a huge stigma on it.

People, these days, are disgusted by compulsion. What many of you want in a dog, that hard and rough dog, putting up a fight, is what the public no longer wants and they don't want to see a helper putting up a real fight with the dog. They don't want to see a dog getting real hits on his back, they don't want to see real pressure on a dog because most of the time, it doesn't look pretty.

E-collar, Prong Collar, anything that could even give a hint of a correction is frowned upon. Just post a picture on the German German Shepherd Group on Facebook and you WILL be scrutinized.

There is a shift and it's not only in the US, Germany, Italy or Switzerland. You can see that shift all over the world and it does effect every single breed. It's almost the same shift you can see in raising kids these days.

Another thing that is happening is that the general public doesn't understand why "these type of dogs" have to be trained by civilians. Many civilians, especially rescuers and activists believe that these dogs, and that kind of training, should not be accessible to civilians but solely in the hand of the German Police and German Military.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:25 AM   #90 (permalink)
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I just would like people to realize what SchH was for. It DID have a purpose and mostly, it wasn't about seeing whether dogs were aggressive enough. It was about seeing if they had the rest of what is necessary in dogs bred to protect..
This has got to be the most meaningful words that have ever been spoken on this forum.
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