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Old 12-18-2012, 09:27 AM   #71 (permalink)
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this is very true "For me schutzhund isn't about whether or not the dogs of today are the same as the dogs of yesterday. Or if the training today is the same as the training of yesterday" but it begs the question what will the dogs of TOMORROW be like . We have already seen that decoys don't know how to work the older style dogs anymore. It may mean that entire chunks out of the genetic heritage of the breed will disappear like some unfashionable garment . It means that the mentality of the mindset of the breed will have shifted. It also begs the question are the "new" dogs better, safer , better judgement, true obedience that is not toy motivated. What are we losing overall.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:35 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Does it matter how we classify a mother protecting young? What does that have to do with SchH protection?.....
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:37 AM   #73 (permalink)
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this is very true "For me schutzhund isn't about whether or not the dogs of today are the same as the dogs of yesterday. Or if the training today is the same as the training of yesterday" but it begs the question what will the dogs of TOMORROW be like . We have already seen that decoys don't know how to work the older style dogs anymore. It may mean that entire chunks out of the genetic heritage of the breed will disappear like some unfashionable garment . It means that the mentality of the mindset of the breed will have shifted. It also begs the question are the "new" dogs better, safer , better judgement, true obedience that is not toy motivated. What are we losing overall.
Not all decoys are bad decoys. There are still decoys out there that worked their way up working the not so stellar dog material and know how to work any dog from the bottom to the top!
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:38 AM   #74 (permalink)
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USCA helper rules state the helper is to watch the dog during the hold and bark...that doesn't mean he should eye screw him. Most times during the helper seminars I've attended we are told to look over the top of the dogs head towards the tail. Remember this is during a trial. We aren't supposed to give help to a dog and as stated some dogs just don't have that strong of a guard in the blind unless the helper has eye sex with them. IMO when they come into the blind they should be ready to go and wanting that fight come trial day. It shouldn't take the helper having a stare down or a twitch here and there to keep them barking and in the blind.

Ah - but this is all prey drive. And IMO, the strong dog with fight who does not perceive a threat from the helper does NOT score as well here.....the dog who is all prey drive is barking at the sleeve - not at the helper. It remains to be seen whether the prey dogs are truly breedworthy. The IPO test does not really tell you that any more (just go look at alot of the Sieger show videos!!!)

I have trained and trialed both kinds of dogs....I prefer the dog who is strong and works hard when perceiving a threat. The helper's demeanor and posture can compose a threat. I understand (as per Mrs. K's post) the political reasons for the change - but I also believe you can still have a strong dog who has active social aggression and can title within these parameters. You may not win HIT or score V's all the time in protection but if you are a truly objective breeder - you will know the difference.

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Old 12-18-2012, 10:07 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Bull...If the dog is that *strong* he should be pushing for that fight as soon as they come into the blind. That's the whole premise to teaching the hold and bark....the reward, the bite, comes from the dog attentively guarding and barking at the helper. The dog should feel like they own the helper as soon as they round the find blind and that includes barking, another form of countering for the dog.

In the grand scheme of things do you think it's going to matter to someone if they get bit with 250psi of jaw pressure it's going to matter what drive the dog happens to be in at that point in time?
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:13 AM   #76 (permalink)
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So...speaking of which...since Schutzhund was a sport to determine if a dog was breedworthy, where the rubber meets the road, how can you use this these days to determine if a dog is breedworthy?

It reminds me of the discussions on Pit bull forum where "old timers" complain that without "matching" the dogs it's impossible to know if they are breedworthy
They blame outlawing fighting on the decline of the breed (that, and they sold dogs to idiots like Michael Vick...)
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:17 AM   #77 (permalink)
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So...speaking of which...since Schutzhund was a sport to determine if a dog was breedworthy, where the rubber meets the road, how can you use this these days to determine if a dog is breedworthy?

It reminds me of the discussions on Pit bull forum where "old timers" complain that without "matching" the dogs it's impossible to know if they are breedworthy
They blame outlawing fighting on the decline of the breed (that, and they sold dogs to idiots like Michael Vick...)
I think a responsible breeder can tell if the dog is worthy just by watching the routine. You can see that my dog is not strong in the work just by watching him, so long as you know what you're looking at.


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Old 12-18-2012, 10:24 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Honestly, the same discussion has been going on for as long as I can remember. Twenty years ago people said they didn't have the dogs that you had ten years before that, and from this point on, in twenty years, we will still talk the same talk we are talking today (boy...did I just say that? LOL).

There will ALWAYS be a working German Shepherd. There will always be people who breed the right dog for the kind of work we need them for.
There will always be competing breeds like Malinois. There will always be prejudices, prey monsters, weak dogs, hard dogs, show dogs.

The cycle will never stop.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:35 AM   #79 (permalink)
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The intention for many is probably just to compete in a sport for fun and glory, if the dog is a real "protectiondog" or not is less important. As mentioned it´s also maybe more controversial in some countries/places if some newbie or "macho-man" insist his sportdog must also be a real protectiondog, especially if this also involves traininmethods that are less nice for the dogs.

A dog defending the offspring, territory etc is fitting the definition of defencedrive in my opinion
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:43 AM   #80 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJenkins View Post
Bull...If the dog is that *strong* he should be pushing for that fight as soon as they come into the blind. That's the whole premise to teaching the hold and bark....the reward, the bite, comes from the dog attentively guarding and barking at the helper. The dog should feel like they own the helper as soon as they round the find blind and that includes barking, another form of countering for the dog.

In the grand scheme of things do you think it's going to matter to someone if they get bit with 250psi of jaw pressure it's going to matter what drive the dog happens to be in at that point in time?

If there is no threat - why fight? Yes - You CAN train this...strong dog or weak dog - turns it into a game - bark for "reward"....have done so.....but the looking away from the dog is NOT THREATENING and weaker dogs can look good as they are NOT perceiving a threat

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