A Question about the purpose and intent of ScH?

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

Some people have to comment on everything, even when it is obvious they don't know a lot about the subject.
I think a mammal protecting their young is pretty consistent with all animals....not sure that would be a drive.

So cliffson1, I guess you are right about some folks commenting when they don't know a lot - I thought that I heard somewhere that a "drive" was an instinctive behavior and just assumed that a dog protecting it's young was just that - an instinctive behavior. Maybe not, though.

So since I obviously don't know much about "drives" (hence my original question about them and how they relate to a dog's behavior); I admittedly can't understand your comment above about the dog's behavior i asked about - which "drive" would a dog defending it's young would represent?

Just to be clear - what "drive" would this behavior represent?

I am asking your personal opinion (or anybody else's as well) about a topic that you have discussed before in this forum - I think.

Is a "drive" NOT an instinctive behavior, or is protecting it's young not evidence of some drive or other?

[Whiteshepherds]

Originally Posted by codmaster

or is protecting it's young not evidence of some drive or other?

Maternal instinct is what makes the dog want to protect her young. If she actually has to protect them that's when the drive kicks in? (guessing )

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by Whiteshepherds

Maternal instinct is what makes the dog want to protect her young. If she actually has to protect them that's when the drive kicks in? (guessing )

Maybe "maternal drive"? Heh! Heh!

or "paternal drive" for the daddy!

[msvette2u]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

Some people have to comment on everything, even when it is obvious they don't know a lot about the subject.
I think a mammal protecting their young is pretty consistent with all animals....not sure that would be a drive.

Mammals protecting their young is extremely intense, I'm not sure what drive it'd be either, but it's best to not mess with it

At to not knowing a lot about something, how do you think we'll learn if not discussion?

Within the next year or so, we plan to have a pup from a very good breeder that we'll be able to work with, and this is a very interesting discussion to me. I'd like to know that more goes on in Sch. these days than dogs running around playing with sleeves, which has been cod's observations as well

[cliffson1]

@Msvette....my first comment was not directed at anyone specifically, but the second comment about drives and mammals was really in response to what was posed by Codmaster....and as I stated I really am NOT sure if maternal instinct would be considered a drive.....nothing more, nothing less. There is a lot about this breed that I am not as knowledgable about as I would like, I tend to not venture opinions in those areas, though sometimes I will ask questions for more clarification.
I think Codmaster was trying to get a greater understanding of this aspect of the sport, and I am sure there are plenty of people on this forum who can and did give him good info. I agree a lot of people learn from these forums and that is good.

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by codmaster

If a ScH dog is truly being trained in protection - why would the training be so sleeve oriented to the point where the dog (in the local club that i am in now) is trained to be pretty much oriented to the sleeve (even when the helper sheds the sleeve and the dog then runs off the field or sometimes just carries it around the field)?

Is it simply more of a game now than true protection work?

Would a ScH trained dog be more (or less if the perp doesn't have a sleeve on) or less likely to really protect the owner?

I am assuming with this question that the dog itself has the courage to fight and is not shy or soft or a spook, of course.



I have recently returned to ScH after an absence from it for over 25 years and it just seems much much different. I.E. no temperament test of new dogs for one thing to begin the bite work

Lemme give you one of the reasons.

In Germany SchH has a tough time to survive and the public looks at SchH dogs as attack dogs, even though there has never been an incident of a SchH dog going after people in Germany, at least not that I am aware of.
BSL is very, very, very much alive in Germany and a lot of people are constantly questioning why the GSD is not on the list. If you have a "list dog" like a pit bull, depending on where you live, you WILL pay up to a 1000 Euros a year in dog tax to keep that dog (you have to pay dog tax to keep a dog in Germany).

So the clubs are trying to show that the dogs are not attack dogs, that they are sleeve oriented and that the public is safe from these "unstable Monsters". That training methods are no longer what they used to be, because Schutzhund used to be a hard and brutal sport and therefor does not have a very good reputation with rescuers and that while there are still oldtimers out there training with compulsion, you can't win that way and you have to have a happy dog in order to survive the new system.

Public pressure, whether we like it or not. IS a reason, why dogs are sleeve oriented these days.

[GatorDog]

Originally Posted by Mrs.K

Lemme give you one of the reasons.

In Germany SchH has a tough time to survive and the public looks at SchH dogs as attack dogs, even though there has never been an incident of a SchH dog going after people in Germany, at least not that I am aware of.
BSL is very, very, very much alive in Germany and a lot of people are constantly questioning why the GSD is not on the list. If you have a "list dog" like a pit bull, depending on where you live, you WILL pay up to a 1000 Euros a year in dog tax to keep that dog (you have to pay dog tax to keep a dog in Germany).

So the clubs are trying to show that the dogs are not attack dogs, that they are sleeve oriented and that the public is safe from these "unstable Monsters". That training methods are no longer what they used to be, because Schutzhund used to be a hard and brutal sport and therefor does not have a very good reputation with rescuers and that while there are still oldtimers out there training with compulsion, you can't win that way and you have to have a happy dog in order to survive the new system.

Public pressure, whether we like it or not. IS a reason, why dogs are sleeve oriented these days.

This was my understanding as well..For the same reasons we have to now say "go" on the escape bite.


Also, in reply to some other comments...As a newbie in the sport, I am not afraid to say that I have just been playing around in Schutzhund with my dog. I don't have the "right" dog for the sport. Does that mean that I shouldn't get the chance to try it with him? I'm not breeding him... If we had both been "washed out" like people here have stated that we should, then there would be plenty of people like me and Aiden who wouldn't be interested in or even have a chance at the training at all. How many new people are coming into Schutzhund with the "right" dog right off the bat? That hardly seems fair to me.

[robk]

I am kind of in the same situation as Alexis. For me Schutzhund is something fun to do with my dog. There are three phases to the sport and all three phases bring its own challenges. My dog is a good dog but I doubt he will ever be a national level competitor and he will probably never be bred. He has a little more defense in him and is a little less equipment oriented than most dogs on the field but we are not really training for "real" protection. We are training to pass a schutzhund trial.

Schutzhund has given us a structured environment to train in and a goal to train towards. It has helped me learn how to communicate with my dog, understand what motivates him and has helped to develop trust between the two of us. Yes I differently trust him more because I have learned where his thresholds are. I also know he will stick a down and he will recall on command.

For me schutzhund isn't about whether or not the dogs of today are the same as the dogs of yesterday. Or if the training today is the same as the training of yesterday. I wasn't around back then. But I am here now and my dog and I are enjoying where we are together.

[GatorDog]

Originally Posted by robk

I am kind of in the same situation as Alexis. For me Schutzhund is something fun to do with my dog. There are three phases to the sport and all three phases bring its own challenges. My dog is a good dog but I doubt he will ever be a national level competitor and he will probably never be bred. He has a little more defense in him and is a little less equipment oriented than most dogs on the field but we are not really training for "real" protection. We are training to pass a schutzhund trial.

Schutzhund has given us a structured environment to train in and a goal to train towards. It has helped me learn how to communicate with my dog, understand what motivates him and has helped to develop trust between the two of us. Yes I differently trust him more because I have learned where his thresholds are. I also know he will stick a down and he will recall on command.

For me schutzhund isn't about whether or not the dogs of today are the same as the dogs of yesterday. Or if the training today is the same as the training of yesterday. I wasn't around back then. But I am here now and my dog and I are enjoying where we are together.

We think the same way My dog isn't exactly equipment oriented either, but I'm not trying to train him for personal protection..hes my pet first and I enjoy training with him.


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[cliffson1]

@Gator and Robt.....there is nothing wrong with what you guys are doing....plenty of club level people having good times. I have a small Sunday club that is comprised of mainly former AKC obedience and show people that have left the ASL dogs and have WGSL and pups from WL. These people are my age, are interested in titling a dog, but are there for the fun and the experience. They trust me and I take it at there speed and there dogs speed. Nothing wrong whatsoever with that....actually one of them is president of the South Jersey GSDCA and they are really happy to do some serious work and learn a lot. They constantly tell me how they didn't realize how much they didn't know about training. Some of these people have put CDX and UD on dogs and some have finished AKC champions. But they are having fun, learning, and definitely going back to breed club with positive info about the sport. Most of these people will only ever do club titles, but hey that's alright. For my dogs it's socialization as they get to work weekly with police....my point is certainly there are places for folks like you in the breed and sport if you and your dog commit.