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Old 12-17-2012, 11:34 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Someone you might talk to about getting more training would be Frank Phillips. I know he isn't close, but a lot closer than the other helpers I would recommend. He did a helper seminar for us after our trial (both training and trial) and he had some excellent ideas for specific problems. Maybe try to see about meeting he and Steve Rommard sometime for a weekend when they are training together.

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Thanks Lies, Jane...

I completely understand not wanting to throw non-members to the wolves... and I've seen first hand what happens here when someone posts a video and the harpies chime in...

hmmmm I do want to see and learn more as I am a beginning helper learning the ropes so to speak... would any of you consider PMing me with Youtube links? You really have no reason to go out of your way, but I would very much appreciate different opinions etc. So I will GLADLY accept PMs of videos that you would consider good and proper, etc... No need to reply to this post, just feel free to throw PM's my way Thanks!!
Steve and Claudia come up for seminars at my club in Albany a few times a year, so if you're close enough it would definitely be worth it to check out.

Frank is awesome too He will be the judge for our fall trial.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:47 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Laurel you need to stop overthinking things and get in the moment with what the dog is doing . You have been exposed to some very good decoys - one of them sort of opened the eyes of the club (which is a GOOD one) you belong to.
Raiser's book is good , but a lot of it is prey manipulation and not dealing with a dog coming out of fight -
I went to the trouble of finding a good decoy who is not in any club , and he would do the bite work for my dogs who went in to service. There was not a one who had any lead up or development for bite work - They lived totally normal lives could have been in anyones pet home , totally socialized and observed in different environments . Then one day , along comes ***** .
One dog , Simon is a super smooch with me . People that have not seen his other side love his "gentle" ways . People that saw him doing bite work stay in the car till they see me (although my dogs are NOT out without my supervision and even then they would be okay because I am okay -- will not act until necessary).
Experience and an eye will give you the feel . This dog has already been worked by excellent decoys and responded impressively - very tough , but very clear - ON and OFF .
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:22 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Oooh the "not looking the dog in the eyes" thing is a peev of mine too. Recently it was commented to me by someone working Medo that his barking was not as good in the blind if the helper was staring off into space, only if he was looking him in the eyes. Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....probably because a bad guy staring into space isn't very threatening?? Now, this person was not condoning this (the passive helper thing), but rather it was more or less stating that in a trial Medo will likely not have a helper looking him in the eyes, so we better work on his barking in that scenario.....
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:00 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Carmen, have you read Raiser's book?

Justine, A bad guy staring off into space is saying that he has no respect for the dog or the dog's power. He is indifferent. A bad guy who has been cornered by a large aggressive barking dog is either going to fight back or he is going to be staring at the dog in fear. He wouldn't be standing there looking off into space.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:29 PM   #45 (permalink)
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USCA helper rules state the helper is to watch the dog during the hold and bark...that doesn't mean he should eye screw him. Most times during the helper seminars I've attended we are told to look over the top of the dogs head towards the tail. Remember this is during a trial. We aren't supposed to give help to a dog and as stated some dogs just don't have that strong of a guard in the blind unless the helper has eye sex with them. IMO when they come into the blind they should be ready to go and wanting that fight come trial day. It shouldn't take the helper having a stare down or a twitch here and there to keep them barking and in the blind.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:21 PM   #46 (permalink)
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It shouldn't take the helper having a stare down or a twitch here and there to keep them barking and in the blind.
I've also seen helpers twitch the stick to keep the dog barking in the blind during trials.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:41 PM   #47 (permalink)
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*** Removed by ADMIN - Personal vendetta to be kept off the board ***

It depends on the dogs and the owners of how the dog is trained at our club. My personal GSD is trained in personal protection and does muzzle work and hidden sleeve work as well as suit and sleeve stuff. He is by no means equipment oriented as that is how I wanted him. Other people in the club train it as a fun game, a lot depends on the individual dogs, most of the dogs trained at our local club that are equipment oriented are other breeds, APBTs,Rottweilers,Airedales etc. That is what their owners choose to do. So, at our club it is an individual basis of how the dogs are trained.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:44 PM   #48 (permalink)
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yes , when it first came out a long time ago. I know that he says that there is a high co-relation between high prey and high fight , that the confident dog does not need to flip into defence , that there is pleasure to fighting and dominating , great will to defeat and be the victor .
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:23 PM   #49 (permalink)
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It depends on the dogs and the owners of how the dog is trained at our club. My personal GSD is trained in personal protection and does muzzle work and hidden sleeve work as well as suit and sleeve stuff. He is by no means equipment oriented as that is how I wanted him. Other people in the club train it as a fun game, a lot depends on the individual dogs, most of the dogs trained at our local club that are equipment oriented are other breeds, APBTs,Rottweilers,Airedales etc. That is what their owners choose to do. So, at our club it is an individual basis of how the dogs are trained.
Why would they train their dogs to be equipment focused? Just curious?
And if so, are they trialing or just playing around?
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:31 PM   #50 (permalink)
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time so fractured lately -- back to Helmut Raiser , I think he is a "master" trainer - I agree that his dog Dreschler was under appreciated , under used , he and and Arthus Lunsholz being better than Sagus who appears on so many pedigrees.
I think Helmut had a gift in reading animals and getting them to work - and his analytic mind tried to decipher it so others could understand what he was experiencing.
Helmut pretty well ushered in MODERN dog training , more of the motivational , prey-booty , which culminates in performances , even in obedience , like Ginogenilli's two years back (3?) .
I think a lot of the pressure for flashy and high prey came from his new training .
I admire the man , am awed by his dogs and performance and feel that he was done wrong when he was the legitimate , democratically voted in head of the SV and then deposed because the recommendations and standards he wanted to make.
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