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Old 12-16-2012, 02:19 PM   #21 (permalink)
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simple things in language even -- the first time I heard it I had no idea what they were talking about -- the sleeve was referred to as "the pillow" , since then have heard it a few times --
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Our club does a temperament test when new dogs come out. It isn't a specific test. We just watch the dog/puppy interact with the club members, around other dogs, and then do some other testing. If more needs to be done then the tester isn't very good.

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This is what they did with my dog and they were able to give me answers as soon as the evaluation was over. Mine was the last one, so I was able to see some really good dogs.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:11 PM   #23 (permalink)
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As someone who has trained with police since 1971, and been a policek9 officer, and still train with police, this is a very interesting thread. One thing is for sure, things are a lot different from what they used to be.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:18 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I wish IPO had more components of the KNPV style of training and trialing. Though the dogs and handlers that aren't mentally or physically able to do the exercises will wash out fairly early.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:23 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I wish IPO had more components of the KNPV style of training and trialing. Though the dogs and handlers that aren't mentally or physically able to do the exercises will wash out fairly early.
I don't see this as a bad thing...?
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:28 PM   #26 (permalink)
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exactly(though handlers with physical issues shouldn't be dismissed due to their limitations)
KNPV is more physical for both however.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:46 PM   #27 (permalink)
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That's what it seems like takes place, at least the club/s local to me.
I can't see how this applies to real life scenarios. It seems like a game that the dog likes, so they do it.
Again I can't answer this because I don't believe I train with such a club (well maybe a few people are just doing it "for fun" but overall the philosophy of the club and how the helpers are working is *not* just playing a tug game). I take it seriously and have done some "double blind" scenarios with my dog at various clubs I've trained with. He's been worked on sleeves (right, left, and both at once), bite suits, nothing at all (agitation work and no biting), worked indoors, tossed around in hay, finding a helper in the woods, helper agitating him in the vehicle, having to go over obstacles to get to the helper, etc. We don't always train with a sleeve and very rarely train trial exercises (only right before a trial and his last SchH trial was Nov 2011). I've done a lot of SDA protection with my dog as well, haven't done much lately but about a year and a half ago that's *all* I was doing with my dog. We did a decoy certification seminar and he was one of the dogs used on the decoys being tested and ended up getting worked by seven different people on a very hot day because the other dog we brought (a national level SchH3 dog) was barking at a pile of sleeves and ignoring a frontal attack from the decoy who was trying to work him.

For some people all they want is a "game". I don't see the point in that and that's not how I train or have helpers work my dog but it's a free country so I guess if that's how people want the sport to be, there's nothing I can do about that.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:53 PM   #28 (permalink)
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No, unfortunately we can only control what we do, but when we can't find helpers to work our dogs that know how to actually work our dogs and not play games, it does get discouraging.
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:05 PM   #29 (permalink)
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mycobrarcr, most of the seminars out there are to train trial helpers. That is the purpose of the USCA helper program. The passive helper nonsense is fairly new. Stupid since a person being held by an aggressive barking would not be staring into space.

Anyhow, I don't know what part of the country you are in, but the helper is there to help the judge test the dogs and not to help the dogs (well, unless we are talking........ no, I'll be good) pass. Our club has a National level helper (actually there are two of them only 20 miles apart for us to work on) who has out run dogs on the escape and no judge at any of the events he has worked (club trials up to Nationals) has told him that he is too fast and needs to slow down or that his stick hits need to be softer. Most of the judges want to hear those stick hits and have no problems failing the dogs that don't have enough drive to catch him on the escape. Yes, the helpers need to be fair and most hate having a dog do badly because they themselves made a mistake, but they, at least the ones I know, are not out there to make it easy on the dogs.

As far as training work, clubs need be willing to bring in helpers and many helpers need to get over their egos and realize that there actually might be someone out there that can teach them something.
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:54 PM   #30 (permalink)
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mycobrarcr, most of the seminars out there are to train trial helpers. That is the purpose of the USCA helper program. The passive helper nonsense is fairly new. Stupid since a person being held by an aggressive barking would not be staring into space.

Anyhow, I don't know what part of the country you are in, but the helper is there to help the judge test the dogs and not to help the dogs (well, unless we are talking........ no, I'll be good) pass. Our club has a National level helper (actually there are two of them only 20 miles apart for us to work on) who has out run dogs on the escape and no judge at any of the events he has worked (club trials up to Nationals) has told him that he is too fast and needs to slow down or that his stick hits need to be softer. Most of the judges want to hear those stick hits and have no problems failing the dogs that don't have enough drive to catch him on the escape. Yes, the helpers need to be fair and most hate having a dog do badly because they themselves made a mistake, but they, at least the ones I know, are not out there to make it easy on the dogs.

As far as training work, clubs need be willing to bring in helpers and many helpers need to get over their egos and realize that there actually might be someone out there that can teach them something.

Lisa, I know that the seminars are for the trial helper, but trials are meant to test the dogs. What kind of test is standing there like a statue while a dog barks? I don't understand it.

I have traveled and worked with different people to try and get better. I truly love helper work and want to be the best helper around. I have worked PPD's as well as some SDA dogs and enjoy the dogs that push me. That make me work that I feel like I am really in a fight with. I hear many people claim to work there dogs this way but when I visit I see a very different picture (not implying you, just in general). I have now gotten to the point where I could care less if my dog is a 300 point dog as long as the dog does what I ask when I ask with no hesitation. I will continue to trial but I will also still do hidden sleeve work, suit work, muzzle work, and work dogs in every situation I can dream up. For me thats the fun stuff.
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