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Old 12-16-2012, 11:32 AM   #11 (permalink)
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personally - have seen ALOT of police dogs who could NOT pass a schutzhund test! Frontal bites, no control, screaming meemies with no clarity....brokers bring them in by the dozens and sell them to departments.....the training is often the blind leading the blind....if they run and bite, that is all that is required....I worked a few times with a group of LE, as they wanted to do titles on their K9s -- and they were totally dismayed by the off lead work, the control and the ability to out a trained sport dog....LOL they all offered to buy both of mine, and one who did alot of breeding wanted a pup from Csabre....but they did not want to do the work required to get the control....

A few LE officers I do know are really into scent work and ob and do a great job.....but there is no consistancy in what departments want or get....

interestingly - some of the video I have seen lately where K9s are being utilized have had WGSL dogs as K9s....

Overall - I am not impressed with the majority of K9s I have seen....seems that alot of sport dog washouts are dumped to brokers for resale....

Lee
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:45 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by wolfstraum View Post

Overall - I am not impressed with the majority of K9s I have seen....seems that alot of sport dog washouts are dumped to brokers for resale....

Lee
I have seen this as well. Dogs that couldn't make through a schH 1 were sold to Police Departments. I have seen everything else you said as well. No control, they needed an E-collar to out the dogs. I have also seen one of our helpers chase a K9 off the field. If you think about it, most bad guys are not trying to fight/confront the dog. They are running away (prey) or are hiding.

To the OP, if you're unhappy with the style of training at your current club, then find a new one. Most important to me is that my dog is real. Scoring points on a feild is very low on my scale of things.
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:52 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Our club does a temperament test when new dogs come out. It isn't a specific test. We just watch the dog/puppy interact with the club members, around other dogs, and then do some other testing. If more needs to be done then the tester isn't very good.

Anyone competing at the top levels in SchH/IPO are not looking for extreme prey dogs. They want balanced dogs that show good aggression in the blind and guarding plus power when on the bite. Yes, the full calm grip comes from prey, but the power and hardness comes from aggression/fight. Then most need crazy ball drive for obedience (because of the way most train with the ball lure). At least this is the way it is with the people I train with. An extreme prey dog is not as easy to train or get the points with in protection.

Much of the problem is the training and the mindset of many people (and judges) now training in IPO. Once we started being PC and trying to justify SchH by calling it a game and then turned it into just another sport for people to do with their dogs (no matter how weak the dog) we started on this downward spiral. There are also not a lot of helpers that have any idea how to work dogs anymore. They only know how to play games. They literally bore the good dogs to death.

Anyhow, Codmaster, not all clubs are like what you are seeing (I have heard this is a huge issue in CA, btw). There are still some of us that believe in a strong balanced dog that can do more than just sport.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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The problem I find most often. is the mentality that exists. Not only are the dogs different but the mentality of the trainers as well. It is exceptionally difficult to try to change people's minds about how SchH should be conducted. They are convinced and believe strongly in much of the things we considered to be completely wrong, years ago. "Serious dogs can't do SchH", "they will lose points" and so on. That is simply not true but the problem started years ago when people didn't know how to train those types of dogs. They always did too much, pushing dogs into defensive behaviors and then beat them up trying to control them. The lack of balance fell to the other side of the equation. In the early 80s, prey work was introduced but hardly anyone understood what it was about. How much of it to use and what it was REALLY for.

A few days ago, someone asked what the carry in SchH was for. The one who did the best job of answering was Lies, who happens to have a dog who takes the work more seriously. Still, some things were left out but really, that was the first time I have seen people even get close to explaining it. Most view it like the dog having his "reward" and showing off with it. That thinking has helped to lead us where we are now. The term game is used to explain why SchH is safe. For me, that makes NO sense whatsoever. You teach your dog to play by biting someone? Nope. doesn't make sense and IMO, that explanation will eventually doom SchH. There are so many LEGITIMATE reasons for what SchH used to be but I guess not many really understand what those reasons are, just as they don't understand prey work . Worse yet, they do not understand DOGS and especially the GSD. Try asking your helper what he saw in your dog when he worked him. Most don't even notice how hard the dog is biting, nor do they notice the dogs reactions. They are simply going through the motions.

What I see at clubs now, are many dogs who are not at all suited to work in protection. One club I have been to, the helper admits that not one dog in the club is suited. Of course, that makes sense because the entire activity has been lowered to this somewhat ridiculous level. I know there are people who try to do it right but I know from talking to many of them, who ask me for help, that it is very difficult to achieve because of what I said above.
I've said it before, when you make something like SchH into an activity that appeals to the "general public", you will cause big problems and that is what I see in my area. I seriously doubt it is different elsewhere.

One poster some time back stated that you can show your serious dog in SchH and maybe people will learn to appreciate them. It was meant as an insult but what he failed to consider is what I said above. WHO is going to help you train that dog? You need a HELPER in SchH and if you have a dog like this, you sure can't work them yourself. They simply do not understand that, it is not in their genetics. The skill and ability to read a dog like this is going away and VERY few understand how to project the right "image" to the dog. The dogs are drilled in the routine which creates bored dogs who do not work in drive. How is that fixed? By breeding dogs with low thresholds for excitement.

There were never many good helpers but there used to be some. Now, it is more about feeding the sleeve, teaching the dog to pull away from the helper when the stick is shown, ( what I consider to be an avoidance behavior), and then this stuff of teaching them to stop the helper. Sure, you should reinforce the dog's power but teaching the dog to pull ALL THE WAY around the back of the helper to make it "appear" that he is a really strong dog, for me, is farcical.

I have worked dogs as the helper for over 35 years and I am very good at it because I read, see and notice what the dogs are doing while I am working them.I know how to play the part. What I see now is dogs who will bite a sleeve but what I don't see is much heart and determination in those dogs. How they work is almost completely different. It doesn't even have to be a case where it is all about that sleeve, the other behaviors are quite evident. I remember dogs CLEARLY who , when you showed them threatening body language, would get better, stronger and would almost stubbornly stay in front to fight with you. They would counter naturally when the stick came and it simply was not a case where they could not out because of that. They had that ability because they were so solid. Now, if you fight with the dog, many will move out of the front to avoid the heat. I don't see that same determination in their eyes, I see some confusion as if they are saying...."why are you not playing with me?" Yeah, there are some really driven dogs who want to possess that sleeve and will hang in there longer but it is a completely different look and what I feel in the sleeve is different as well. Mostly things remain the same, no fight, no harder grip, no pushing INTO the helper, just hang there, endure long enough or pull like heck away from the helper and this sleeve will be mine. That's not protection, nor is it a display of character or a dog who could really do protection .

We used to see many more dogs who had the heart, courage, fortitude, whatever you want to call it, to take on the MAN. Now we mostly see dogs who will only take on a sleeve. Mostly nowadays, I work dogs by trying to bring out their aggression and fight. I will push them into defense for a very brief time to try to get to it. Because of the training that tends to pave over what we really want to see in the dogs, I have to resort to this kind of work much more often than I used to. We would do this once in a while ,years ago, as well. Tie a dog to a fence and challenge him, leaving fight the only way out. One time was enough to wake a dog up and you never did it over and over. If the dog did not respond, he was not for SchH. The response from the good ones was something to see. I might be able to bring up some aggression in the dogs now but it is not the same at all.

A few years back I remember people making comments about dogs they would watch in obedience and would predict that they would be very good in protection and vice versa. They were indeed noticing something. However, because obedience has taken over as being the easiest way to impress spectators or win trials, those dogs who have the high aptitude for "obedience", ( which it really isn't, it is mostly behaviors rewarded with prey items), are selected over the more powerful, tougher dogs with better nerves who are not as excited about working for toys. They could look very good with other training methods though but now, there is a mentality about food and toy rewards, so, people don't understand how to train these types of dogs.

I have done SchH so long, there is nothing else I would really want to do with my dogs. The problem is now, there is no place to do it. Not one of the 20 or so clubs in my area are doing SchH but they will argue with me that they are. They will tell tales about what SchH used to be without having a CLUE, having never been there. They will claim the dogs are so much better now, having never seen the dogs from years ago. Yeah, not all of it was pretty, JUST LIKE NOW. But, there is no denying the quality of those very good dogs that so many SchH trainers point to in their pedigrees!

Yep there were nervy dogs then, there were dogs not suited but you could NOT do SchH with them. Not because it was not allowed by the people, ( although that was mostly the case), it was because SchH would eliminate them. They could not take on a man, so, they would fail. They could not pass. Now, most of the time, they can.
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Last edited by Vandal; 12-16-2012 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I haven't been in this nearly as long as Anne.....I haven't seen the 'old' school personally....but I sure have seen what she has seen in training and clubs....

When my dog is guarding on a small, non threatening helper, and a big imposing guy (who she has worked on) walks up behind her....and she redirects....I get told she is not good??? She should stay focused on the SLEEVE???!!! HUH????? Something is wrong with the whole perception of the training....this dog understands the imminent threat of the man....I could not trial the dog on anything less than a strong helper....

Anyway - I totally agree with Anne's post.....I have seen a few good dogs - but most dogs I have seen are prey monsters who would bark at a sleeve on the ground while the bad guy takes out a baseball bat to beat them with!

Breeding like to like does not help the breed at all.....but people want those lines and it is a vicious circle....

Lee
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:34 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
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codmaster look at this thread -- question for experienced helpers

and go back and find posts by Anne Kent - VANDAL - who describes dogs from days gone by who would act just like "Journey" .

Thanks - VERY interesting thread. Esp. the 2nd half of it.

One question about "drives" - I would assume that a dog is never all in one drive but a combination of them? I.E. can a dog in protection work be acting out of Prey and Defense at the same time? When the helper comes running at the handler - maybe a combination of defense for itself and also for the handler?
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:37 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Lee... Anne... exceptional information and insight. Thank you.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:50 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
but most dogs I have seen are prey monsters who would bark at a sleeve on the ground while the bad guy takes out a baseball bat to beat them with!
This is what I've noticed, too, watching some of the videos people post. The dog is only amped up over the sleeve.

To me, that translates into "fun game" but nothing that applies to real life, unless the intruder wears a sleeve when he comes to break in or rape you.
And even then, it'll just be a nice game of tug-o-war!
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:53 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Anne, Have you been to a helper seminar recently? It is pathetic! It is all about being a trial helper, not about a training helper. Those are very different things. Trial helper- Don't look the dog in the eyes and... the term helper means to make the dog look good and so on. I was told at one point that I was running too fast on the escape bite and it made it hard for the dog to catch me. I'm no sprinter so maybe it was just a lazy dog. The funny thing was is that I out ran the once, but after that the dog was all over me. It wasn't going to let me get away again. Some of the dogs out there really want to be pushed/challenged. So I understand that it is hard to find a good helper. This is what we are taught. I decided to travel to different clubs and work with different judges and all it did was confuse the crap out of me on what they are actually looking for in the dogs. After the last trial I went to last month I have decided to leave SchH and try another sport. I'm sure there will be some similar problems but I'm hoping for the best.
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:58 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Our club does a temperament test when new dogs come out. It isn't a specific test. We just watch the dog/puppy interact with the club members, around other dogs, and then do some other testing. If more needs to be done then the tester isn't very good.

Anyone competing at the top levels in SchH/IPO are not looking for extreme prey dogs. They want balanced dogs that show good aggression in the blind and guarding plus power when on the bite. Yes, the full calm grip comes from prey, but the power and hardness comes from aggression/fight. Then most need crazy ball drive for obedience (because of the way most train with the ball lure). At least this is the way it is with the people I train with. An extreme prey dog is not as easy to train or get the points with in protection.

Much of the problem is the training and the mindset of many people (and judges) now training in IPO. Once we started being PC and trying to justify SchH by calling it a game and then turned it into just another sport for people to do with their dogs (no matter how weak the dog) we started on this downward spiral. There are also not a lot of helpers that have any idea how to work dogs anymore. They only know how to play games. They literally bore the good dogs to death.

Anyhow, Codmaster, not all clubs are like what you are seeing (I have heard this is a huge issue in CA, btw). There are still some of us that believe in a strong balanced dog that can do more than just sport.
Thanks - VERY informative.

I have no problem with the ScH training in the club as long as I look at it as a sport (game?) - like a big extreme game of Tug! And i was glad that my dog (US show line male with no ScH for at least 5 gen back!) actually did very well with it - good bite and good enthusiasim for the sleeve but a couple of other dogs from the same top show kennel had no enthusiasm for the sport at all. And there was not a hint of a courage test to begin the training so i was curious.

Obviously the way we do it here is not the original of a breeding test for dogs to pass - just a fun sport.

It was interesting though when I had someone take a picture of my dog while he had a firm bite on the sleeve and the helper was petting him on top of his furry head! And then as soon as we finished with the bite work and the helper comes off the field, my dog was nothing but friendly with him.
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