A Question about the purpose and intent of ScH?

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1

So back in the day they would put pressure on the dog from day 1?

No.

All the methods you see today, putting a ball under your chin, spitting food out of your mouth, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, pinning a ball underneath your armpit, all that was already present back in the day. All that, has been "re-invented" from business savy dog handlers and been sold as the new, innovative training styles.

They may have tested a dogs courage and how much pressure they can take every once in a while during training and the trial. I remember when the bamboo sticks were used instead of softsticks. And sure, there were people that would constantly put pressure on a dog and many many many dogs broke under that pressure. But not everyone did that.

Honestly, every generation will say "Oh my...the good old times."
Our grandparents said it, our parents said it, we said it and our kids will say it, the future kids will say it...

[ayoitzrimz]

Originally Posted by Mrs.K

Honestly, every generation will say "Oh my...the good old times."
Our grandparents said it, our parents said it, we said it and our kids will say it, the future kids will say it...

That right there, probably sums it up... We always remember selectively

[Blitzkrieg1]

Originally Posted by x11

wwwoooow, blitz yr post has directly just slammed the gsd breeding community as money driven breed to sell *** garbage*** .

*** Removed by ADMIN *** i don't even doubt what yr saying is not true but it does say a whole lot of implications.

Don't get me wrong I like money as much as the next person so I try to avoid the sanctimonius high horse poop!.
I am just saying that people nowaday seem to expect less from their dogs, and this has translated in the GSD world to less pressure on breeders to actually produce a workable dog..in my view anyways.
Strangely I have noticed an increased demand or interest in the working type GSD. Seems like more and more classifieds lately with sables all touted as European Champions..whatever that means, lol. I do see some legit looking WL pups though. Not a pedigree guru by any stretch so I can't say whether or not theres any quality behind them.

[cliffson1]

SCH is like Politics......in the beginning (beside breed test), it was a partime venture that assisted in making meaningful contributions to society;.....today it is either a vocation until itself, or a prerequisite for making a lot of money.

[wolfstraum]

Originally Posted by x11

carmspack so why is that so incompatible with today's market, does it also bring with it necessary negative traits that would be incompatible in general society today?

I would not say it is not compatible with today's market....there are many sectors of "today's market"- you have to look at where pups end up....there was a facebook thread I think that talked about the numbers of GSDs bred - last statistics published had them at No 2 for registrations...last break down I saw was 49,000 litters, and 114,000 individual registrations - in my mind - that means ALOT of dogs not registered and the majority - the very large majority - are BYB dogs with no rhyme or reason for the match. So the market is really more for inexpensive pet homes....the market for well bred higher priced dogs is much smaller....and the market segment we seem to discuss most here is for the European bred dog....which through the wonderful auspices of the AKC allowing any dog with a certificate to be bred, is slowly but surely spreading into the "sunday paper" classified ads breeder.

The social aggression aspect is still out there....the DDR lines are being bred like crazy for pet homes....not for sport homes - the "look" is what is valued here

The market is big for the black and red/tan "traditional" (if 30 years out of 110 makes a tradition ) GSD that can be a pet....again, bred by many BYB and savvy business breeders for the pet market...more than serious breeders who show adn title....going into the priority of these breeders is another subject - but yes, when you place all your emphasis on one aspect - in this case "anatomy" - it is usually to the detriment of other expected characteristics and the segment of the breed loses the balance needed to meet the entire "standard".


....the Working line market seems to be driven to produce "Extreme drive" while only a small percentage of WL pups actually go to working homes...the rest go to pet homes....many times inexperienced pet homes who are overfaced with the management of a high energy youngster - at least without aggression, some of these dogs succeed as pets - far too many end up on a fast track to an early demise.


Luckily there are some breeders who endeavor to produce a balanced dog with the characteristics which the breed is idealized to show - with varying degrees of sucess.....those are not usually the breeders with big kennels with 6 or 12 litters a year and their own stud dogs...it is a small segment....there are a handful of breeders on this forum who strive to produce this.....and there are many who are in the US who think they do yet are still striving for that 'extreme' sport dog and sometimes the litter is way more extreme in prey or aggression because the breeder wants "names" connected to the BSP/WUSV in quantity without really understanding what comes from where. Too often breeders and litters get recommended here which IMO are not suitable to the posters who come on inquiring for dogs....if a board member is not interested in the sport or some long term training, it is not doing them or the breed a favor to push litters with high sport breeding because the website is nice or the dog is gorgeous ..... or someone has a cute puppy connected to the kennel.

The market for LE dogs brings in European dogs via brokers.....yes, some dogs from US breedings do go to LE - particularly to small departments with small budgets who want a K9 on board for PR.....some do well too! But the big departments, the cities deal within a circle of brokers where the dogs are older, testable and often do not even have paperwork coming from Europe with them....

Unfortunately - the laws of supply and demand seem to have dumbed down the breed to fit the largest segment of the market.

Lee

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by x11

what i cannot determine is if there is an element of back in my day the dogs were soooo much harder and 'realer" than they are now.

not saying this is the case but hard to actually prove much when it all happened before YT etc.

everything seemed to be better "back in the day" - i remain somewhat skeptical, i mean surely those lines that were so much better still exist, if they don't the people belittling today's dogs are surely the cause of the downfall for not maintaining, you can't blame someone who arrived today for the previous 100 years of breeding??/

Not coming from me. I'm too new to have a "back in the day". On my first dogs now

[Rosie428]

Originally Posted by codmaster

If a ScH dog is truly being trained in protection - why would the training be so sleeve oriented to the point where the dog (in the local club that i am in now) is trained to be pretty much oriented to the sleeve (even when the helper sheds the sleeve and the dog then runs off the field or sometimes just carries it around the field)?

Is it simply more of a game now than true protection work?

Would a ScH trained dog be more (or less if the perp doesn't have a sleeve on) or less likely to really protect the owner?

I am assuming with this question that the dog itself has the courage to fight and is not shy or soft or a spook, of course.



I have recently returned to ScH after an absence from it for over 25 years and it just seems much much different. I.E. no temperament test of new dogs for one thing to begin the bite work

Unfortunately, the no temperment testing falls on the breeders and clubs who allow these dogs to get a bite!

The important thing to remember is that Schutzhund is a sport now, but was developed to evaluate the German Shepherd. Ideally, dogs have an on/off switch. The protection is a routine, not real life. It is meant to demonstrate control in all situations, even when the dog knows there is someone lurking.


For some dogs, its is all a game. The sleeve is dropped, and the dog does not know what to do with itself. For other dogs, every bite is serious. It has a ton to do with genetics and upbringing.

A good dog will protect you when the situation calls for it, but not without good reason.

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

SCH is like Politics......in the beginning (beside breed test), it was a partime venture that assisted in making meaningful contributions to society;.....today it is either a vocation until itself, or a prerequisite for making a lot of money.

There is a lot of politics involved but there are working line people who are standing up against politics, corruption and trial manipulations.

www.initiativgruppe-sv.de


There is a lot happening in Germany right now but I'm not sure how much you actually hear about that stuff in the US.

[onyx'girl]

copying the link translation. Mrs K. is this translation correct? I copied it here in case it somehow dissappears magically as we know controversial internet postings do!
News
Reaction of the Initiative Group-SV
Monday, 21 January 2013 at 06:37 clock
We received a letter from lawyers has become known in which, initiated by Hartmut Setecki and Nicholas Waltrich, on the initiative group-SV, a value judgment is that we can not relate. Since each member of our group here is affected, yesterday we sent subsequent letters to the President, Dr. Henke, Vice President Mr. Nicholas Waltrich and the Chief Executive Hartmut Setecki. We hope to receive a timely response here.

We refer to the accessible for each letter of the RA firm Lausen on behalf of SV eV and Messrs Waltrich and Setecki personally, which deals in content and in particular for the assessment of the membership of the Initiative Group-SV.
Membership in the Initiative Group-SV can obviously evaluate each person and judge for yourself. With real dismay, we have to remove the members of the initiative group-SV This letter, however, that membership in our group as something "ehrverletzendes" and thus as the reputation of a person which harm circumstance is evaluated. Particularly inappropriate, we find the fact that the initiators letter from the Chief Executive of the SV Association and vice president of the SV eV, Messrs. Hartmut Setecki and Nicholas Waltrich are.
The objective of the initiative group-SV is on our website Initiativgruppe SV clearly defined, namely consistently fight fraud in the SV and conclude with applications gaps in the Statute of the SV, have made ​​the fraud possible. This means we are committed openly and actively encouraged by what Mr. Setecki is paid by us and the other SV members and Mr. Waltrich and the whole board elected were: to improve by the fraud and its fatal effects damaged image of our society, create conditions that give the scam chance.
This initiative have already joined over 260 SV-members, among whom, and currently more than 130 officers from the SV almost 30 SV-judges.
Our President, Dr. Henke, in his speech at the National Breed Show 2012 in Ulm clearly documented the view of the Board that of fraud and racketeering in SV eV have no business and tackle it is. His slogan "Genetic instead Monetik "has impressed itself upon many, and has stuck. Not least because this will of the overwhelming majority of members of SV eV also wished Sun
that there are loads of fraud and profiteering of health and usability of our race in our society, unfortunately is a sad fact indisputable. Any prior sanctions or temporary offices locks prove this. It is also a fact that the possibilities of the club's management, here to take adequate resources and effective measures are limited or given opportunities provided by the statutes ways unfortunately trodden not consistently enough so not to the fraud coverage, ie nationwide, weitestgehendst to . prevent Also, former press officer SV, Mr. Voltz calls, in his article in the latest SV-Zeitung, "finally to provide an efficient and oriented to the rule of law association jurisdiction on the way"
The idea of the initiative group-SV, their goal is to jointly with many like-minded people, prevent with honest sports fans simply by being present at test events that this dog training degree attests that are not justified, that tests for dogs are written that were not even in this test on the court. addition to an information to members shall be made, in what way the democratic development can be realized in the club. Proposals for amendments to the Articles of Association shall be submitted, which are likely just to counter these undesirable developments and to improve the breed contribute.
If the initiative group-SV then by high-ranking officials the association is classified agierend kind of "enemies", as against SV eV, this can either be just a lack of information about the objectives of our group or as an unwillingness to face the facts, perceived to be.
contrast, would argue that Mr. Henke and Mr. Setecki were informed of the formation of the group and initially expressed positive about it. However, they are contrary to the statements in the above-mentioned lawyer letter.
The initiative group-SV with all its members is shown here in this letter from the lawyers as simplistic damaging. For us, the letter reads as if it set for each member of this society is an insult to be associated with us. This we feel is a level of criticism of the can not believe we are that it actually reflects the opinion of the entire club management.
we request urgently on behalf of the members of the initiative group-SV by the board of SV eV an immediate statement about where letter from the lawyers Lausen for SV eV emitted as a whole value judgments about the initiative group-SV.
Messrs. Nicholas Waltrich and Hartmut Setecki we ask as much a representation of the grounds for their personal value judgment on the initiative group-SV concrete. Why, Sir, you subject us to act against SV eV leave us as "the other side" and pose as opponents of the SV eV?
Thank you in advance for a prompt response.
Sincerely
The Initiative Group SV-
Ina Wittfoth and Katrin Mechling

[Mrs.K]

It is a good enough translation to give a general idea what the Initiative group is all about. I'm a member of the Initiative myself to support their effort in fighting fraud within the SV.