A Question about the purpose and intent of ScH?

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by Catu

One pet peeve of me when people bashes Schutzhund is people asking for dogs "with not too much drive" Like drives, which by itself means nothing, has anything to do... when they really mean "I don'r want a neurotic dog that can't settle.

It reminds me a graffiti I saw once that said "NO TO THE ECONOMY" Okaaaay..... you can be against socialism, or against capitalism, but how can you be against economy?

No kidding. I don't get it either. Drive has nothing to do with the ability to settle at home. Makes me shake my head every time I read or hear it.

[carmspack]

when I had guests over the other day , discussing the possibility of schutzhund training , and which books I would recommend I once again thought of Helmut Raisers book and this thread.
So the answer to "Carmen, have you read Raiser's book?"
is yes , and I still maintain that Raiser was instrumental into advancing prey stimulation as a motivation in training to a science . This changed the nature of sport and has and is changing the genetics of the dog , by of course, selection . Raiser had his own mentor in Bernhard Mannel , who also influenced Bieler . You can not argue with the results these trainers and others since then have received on the BSP podium . Outstanding.
But the work is largely shaped by prey drive.

"
It does matter. A dog in high fight/aggression, when I stab him or punch him in the face, will fight harder."

continuing " A dog in high prey will be rattled and potentially disengage... cause prey doesn't fight back like that. " --- exactly the point , because in the hunt if there is too much fight back the "hunter" will back off preventing himself from being injured - injuries which can be potentially fatal . Also, the "hunter" will deliberately select and isolate , the young, the weak, the ill , who have more inability to fight back.

[Blitzkrieg1]

Carmen are you saying that Helmuts promotion of training in prey is responsible for weaker nerved dogs today? Not saying it was intentional, just wondering if this was an unintended result of his approach to training?
I have always understood the basic concept to be you do the initial bite work in prey building the dogs confidence and intensity then you start incorporating pressure from time to time to test the dog and further build his confidence.
Is the difference in how things are done today that there is no transition from prey to defense or not enough?

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1

Carmen are you saying that Helmuts promotion of training in prey is responsible for weaker nerved dogs today? Not saying it was intentional, just wondering if this was an unintended result of his approach to training?
I have always understood the basic concept to be you do the initial bite work in prey building the dogs confidence and intensity then you start incorporating pressure from time to time to test the dog and further build his confidence.
Is the difference in how things are done today that there is no transition from prey to defense or not enough?

No, just that starting in prey is more effective. Less stress = faster learning. Teach the exercise, then teach it to be done aggressively. That's why in karate you do kata slow and accurate without a sparing partner... Learn it first, then learn to do it under stress (sparing), then it will likely still work under extreme stress (getting jumped in an alley)

[Blitzkrieg1]

So back in the day they would put pressure on the dog from day 1?

[x11]

what i cannot determine is if there is an element of back in my day the dogs were soooo much harder and 'realer" than they are now.

not saying this is the case but hard to actually prove much when it all happened before YT etc.

everything seemed to be better "back in the day" - i remain somewhat skeptical, i mean surely those lines that were so much better still exist, if they don't the people belittling today's dogs are surely the cause of the downfall for not maintaining, you can't blame someone who arrived today for the previous 100 years of breeding??/

[Blitzkrieg1]

Originally Posted by x11

what i cannot determine is if there is an element of back in my day the dogs were soooo much harder and 'realer" than they are now.

not saying this is the case but hard to actually prove much when it all happened before YT etc.

everything seemed to be better "back in the day" - i remain somewhat skeptical, i mean surely those lines that were so much better still exist, if they don't the people belittling today's dogs are surely the cause of the downfall for not maintaining, you can't blame someone who arrived today for the previous 100 years of breeding??/

You can to a degree if the current trend in buyers which drive the demand for a certain type of dog lead to more production of said dog. Eg: oversized, lowdrive couch potato, weak nerves...

Many people buying a GSD now a days dont value the traits that should be present in an ideal GSD. They basically want a Golden in a GSD body.

I do think there was an element of common sense and realism that was around back in the day that is slowly fading out of our society. Then again this is just my opinion so perhaps Im wrong.

[x11]

wwwoooow, blitz yr post has directly just slammed the gsd breeding community as money driven breed to sell *** garbage*** .

*** Removed by ADMIN *** i don't even doubt what yr saying is not true but it does say a whole lot of implications.

[carmspack]

a breed, any breed , always evolves , whether for good or for bad -- In the 70's I saw American line show dogs doing schutzhund with more conviction then many German show lines today .

In the evolution a trend dictates for a period -- erect ears, certain colours, certain sires -- and the progeny reflect the flaws of those choices . The breed from its inception was brought to crisis points more than once - even back in the day of von Stephanitz where he had to enter with a stiff broom to clean up the situation.

what we have lost in the breed , for one , is active aggression - even the wording intimidates some -- these were the dogs that could negotiate fight and come out unscathed - resilient .

There is a book which I keep recommending -- Bred for Perfection

[x11]

carmspack so why is that so incompatible with today's market, does it also bring with it necessary negative traits that would be incompatible in general society today?