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Old 12-02-2012, 03:19 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Don't make implications or statements like that on a public forum which may undermine people's faith in my helper work who may read this, when it is not the case at all what you just said regarding how I work dogs. I assure you, no one I work with does not get a lengthy explanation as to the what, how, and why of every exercise. I train each dog how the handler and I feel that that dog needs to be trained. That's a wide array of training too broad to paint with one brush like that

Your goals are your goals. Have fun with it by all means.
Oh no. It wasn't an implication, it was a conclusion...

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no, no.. *I* have to conclude that *you* don't understand ****GOOD**** table work with blanket statements like "its not part of our training philosophy". You're dismissing the technique without knowing how to do it or the results. Its just naive to dismiss something that is not understood.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:26 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Sorry, but there is a big difference between a puppy and an adult and a mature dog. And yes, there are people that can look at an adult, matured dog, and judge the dog based on what they have in front of them. You don't need a sleeve to get a first impression of a dog. You don't need a sleeve to see that a dog is a nerve bag, you don't need a sleeve to see how a dog carries himself, or if a dog is confident or not or has drive.


If you need a sleeve for that... well...
You are reading and interpreting things that I did not or did not intend to communicate... we are just not effectively communicating here...

They can certainly judge a mature dog, on first glance, but that judgement, even by some of the best in the business, is rarely spot on, usually generally correct, but sometimes flat wrong. In my personal experience, someone's initial judgement after working one of my dogs was flat wrong. Not by my opinion, but by months later this person recanted their very own initial assessment and said they had interpreted the dog incorrectly and that their new, much better informed assessment was quite the polar opposite of the initial...

So we will have to agree to disagree. I will submit that when I work a new dog or visiting/passing through handler & dog, I can get a general feel for how a dog is going to be. Assuming you know anything beyond that is at the detriment of the dog, the handler, and very often the helper's physical well being. Yet another reason a table is useful. No dog on the planet is able to stretch a table's chain even a fraction of a millimeter. The helper can get his face within an inch of an insanely aggressive dog and know there will be no leash slippage, no swaying handler, no handler's momentary off-balance foot placement shifting, and just work the dog safely.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:29 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I am perfectly willing to admit I don'thave a clue about table training but there also seems to be an attitude of we -being in the club know what it is and you who are not in the club don't-and quite frankly I don't...but there also does not seem to be an attempt to educate those of use who don't. Haven't read the whole thread but if a dog is put on the table and cowers etc-in my opinion it isn't the dog who shouldn't be training-a good trainer in my opinion cares about and is fair to the dog-I have done schutzhund-never table training and I am not sure I have missed anything I think there are lots of different ways to train dogs-don't really believe that you have to use table training to bring out aggression-although the thing I miss most about schutzhund is sushi (so obviously not the best person to be giving out schutzhund advice)
I'll gladly explain to you how, why, and when I use a table, muzzle, or any other tool. I don't do anything b/c someone said I should or "this is how it is done". I do something b/c it was explained to me what it was, how it worked, why it worked, when to use it, when not to use it, and *shown* how to use it. If I can't be persuaded of a technique's or tool's merits and believe in them through demonstration of its effectiveness, I do not use them.

PM me if you like.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:37 PM   #64 (permalink)
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If that's your opinion, and you have newbies, primarily work their dogs in defense, rather than prey, without them knowing how to handle, it or knowing what they have in their hands, that's a disaster waiting to happen.
When you make statements like that on a public forum, there is the risk that someone reads this and is dissuaded from even trying the sport or coming out to our club and *SEEING* how I train, b/c their naive/ignorant/uninformed interpretation of your statement is that I, as this clubs primary helper, am doing a disservice to handlers, "newbies", or somehow create disasters. That is offensive to me. I put *massive* time, money, and effort into learning how to do good helper work. I, more than any helper I have ever come across (and because of noticing it myself as a new handler), strongly encourage and push my handlers to take control of their own training. I don't do helper work if the handler doesn't understand or atleast is trying to understand the "what, why, and how" of a given exercise and of the things at play with *their* dog. Ask anyone who's dog I've worked. The first words out of my mouth are always "What would you like to work on", even when I know full well the answer will be "uhh.... I dunno... uhh... bitework?" I don't have the time, memory, or desire to manage 20+ dog's training programs on a weekly basis. I've got my own that more than satisfy that urge.

SO, if you want to make statements like that, please make them generic and not directed at me.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:39 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Oh no. It wasn't an implication, it was a conclusion...
Am I to interpret this as, you conclude you know more about a given training technique that you've never done and never wish to do, than me... who has done, with great results, this technique and continues to do?
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:22 PM   #66 (permalink)
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As a training helper I have used a "table" once.....it was a Pit Bull and she was standing on a picnic table at the park. . Other than that, no, never. Never felt the need to use one.

As a handler, I put one of my dogs on one because the helper just could not get what I wanted out of my dog. He was a real propponet of the table and considered himself to be quite an expert. I put the dog up there but the helper work sucked as bad with the dog four feet off the ground as it did with him standing on the grass, ( just as I knew it would). Took the dog back off thirty seconds later and back to my car.

I actually understand what Mrs K is trying to say but people are choosing to be offended by. lol. Some dogs don't really "need" to be worked on a table. Trainers choose to use it...fine....but that doesn't change reality.

As for the original question, as a helper, no, I don't work the dogs in "defense". I use many different ways to bring the dog into fight drive. When he wants to engage and fight with me, I reinforce that behavior. Doesn't matter if it is with his bark or his bite or what he is standing on.

As a handler, more and more I am tempted to try to use anything to get the right kind of helper work. However, just using tables, or anything else for that matter, will never take the place of a really talented helper. They don''t need props or tools as much as the people who really don't know as much as they think they do, believe.

Oh and yes, I do understand the concept of the table.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:35 PM   #67 (permalink)
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As a training helper I have used a "table" once.....it was a Pit Bull and she was standing on a picnic table at the park. . Other than that, no, never. Never felt the need to use one.

As a handler, I put one of my dogs on one because the helper just could not get what I wanted out of my dog. He was a real propponet of the table and considered himself to be quite an expert. I put the dog up there but the helper work sucked as bad with the dog four feet off the ground as it did with him standing on the grass, ( just as I knew it would). Took the dog back off thirty seconds later and back to my car.

I actually understand what Mrs K is trying to say but people are choosing to be offended by. lol. Some dogs don't really "need" to be worked on a table. Trainers choose to use it...fine....but that doesn't change reality.

As for the original question, as a helper, no, I don't work the dogs in "defense". I use many different ways to bring the dog into fight drive. When he wants to engage and fight with me, I reinforce that behavior. Doesn't matter if it is with his bark or his bite or what he is standing on.

As a handler, more and more I am tempted to try to use anything to get the right kind of helper work. However, just using tables, or anything else for that matter, will never take the place of a really talented helper. They don''t need props or tools as much as the people who really don't know as much as they think they do, believe.

Oh and yes, I do understand the concept of the table.
I don't think I ever implied any dog needed a table... just that it can enhance table work.

And I agree regarding the helper work.. thats why I said there is only one person I will do table work with. Someone who cannot draw aggression out of a dog on the ground, likely will not do any better on a table. Someone who can draw strong aggression on the ground, likely can draw more aggression on the table.

It is good you understand how a table *can* be used well enough to know when to pull your dog from a bad table experience... this is why I don't think most should do table work, b/c most don't know when to pull the plug... however that also applies to normal helperwork. I have several dogs at our club that take extra effort to undo and clear up BS that some other helper before I showed up put on them (from what I understand, he was of the thought that all dogs need to be back tied and learn to come through the stick).

The first time I did any table work, strong aggression came out from the get go. It was already there to begin with... we didn't put anything there that wasn't already there, nor bring anything out that couldn't have been achieved with other means. It is just but one effective way to get to the same end goal

As a training helper I do not do table work. I'm not experienced enough being on that side of the dog with a table to experiment with someone's dog.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:01 PM   #68 (permalink)
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....I'd have liked to see his aggression without a fence in the way, and no sleeve...

you would like to see that, holy sheet that would be one viral video...sounds like you got that from Herr Hitler's own GSD training manual.

thanks for not bashing my decoy - he is a reluctant participant who does not own a dog.

horror observation - look at the angle the wedge part of the sleeve if facing...away from the dogs mouth toward the sky - my poor puppies bite development

strangely i only just noticed this.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:16 PM   #69 (permalink)
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you would like to see that, holy sheet that would be one viral video...sounds like you got that from Herr Hitler's own GSD training manual.

thanks for not bashing my decoy - he is a reluctant participant who does not own a dog.

horror observation - look at the angle the wedge part of the sleeve if facing...away from the dogs mouth toward the sky - my poor puppies bite development

strangely i only just noticed this.
well I'd love to see it off leash, but i believe on leash was implied lol.. good luck finding someone willing to do it off leash, and if you do promise to put me in touch with their friends... birds of a feather flock together and I'd like to get in on that lol.

That wouldn't worry me about the sleeve. A dog taught to bite and target well is unaffected by sessions of crap presentation here and there... even dogs that genetically have a solid grip still grip well after loads of horrid presentation.
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Katya v. Hügelblick, HOT, IPO2, CGC
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:23 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Why does doing IPO for fun meaning doing it half-@$$? I remember one time at our club someone brought a dog out that is not worked regularly and made a comment about how the dog could be worked casually "enough to pass" IPO1 and several people took offense to that. Either the dog has it or it doesn't. I do IPO1 for fun; I'm not a cop and I don't breed dogs or compete in Europe or sell protection dogs but I don't get the attitude that working the dog only in prey "just" for an IPO1 is safer and better (or any more fun). Why not work with the drives the dog has? To me it would be like going to flyball and saying I'm just doing it for fun so I'm not going to train my dog to actually bring the tennis ball back, even though he's a good dog and can do everything else and could be easily trained to do it and my club members don't understand why I would only train the dog halfway. It just makes no sense. Now if the dog has absolutely no defense drive, or has so much or such a low threshold that the dog is way too sharp and aggressive, then the dog just shouldn't do IPO.
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