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Old 12-02-2012, 02:00 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Really?
Absolutely. If you don't wish for a dog to work in aggression, or a dog doesn't possess the ability to do so, protection training is ill suited to that dog/handler team
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:01 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Well, now,,,,, that is debatable You should qualify that statement.
Yeah, should and must are two different things and the topic of a totally different thread, lol! (or maybe not....)
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:05 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Absolutely. If you don't wish for a dog to work in aggression, or a dog doesn't possess the ability to do so, protection training is ill suited to that dog/handler team
Well, that's your opinion, not mine.

Even if the dog is worked in prey, a trained and experienced eye can always see through a dog and see their quality. I am doing SchH for fun, not because I need a PPD or because I want to compete at the WUSV. I do it because I enjoy doing it and not because I want to proof something to the rest of the world. I know what I've got and I want to grow with it.

If that's your opinion, and you have newbies, primarily work their dogs in defense, rather than prey, without them knowing how to handle, it or knowing what they have in their hands, that's a disaster waiting to happen. You have to grow with your dog and I wouldn't want anyone work their dog in defense if they are new to the sport.

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Old 12-02-2012, 02:07 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Yeah, should and must are two different things and the topic of a totally different thread, lol! (or maybe not....)
True... When I said must, I should haved added, "to be properly and fully judged".

An all prey routine is like shooting at a man shaped target all day at the rifle range, and concluding that your good marksmanship shows you are ready for war... Possibly yes, possibly no... Either way we didn't get to see the picture to conclude with *any* confidence. Worse, we are relying solely on your natural instinct and mental strength to be present instead of exploring those aspects of you and maximizing your natural abilities to retain your skills under heavy stress and adversity through training

No different than the companion only types who boast their dog would absolutely defend them bc "he's a gsd" and "protective" and "growled at a guy once"
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:13 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Well, that's your opinion, not mine.
I think if you logically honestly look at it, you'd agree. The dog can have a big fun and games jamboree with a sleeved helper, but that just *looks* like protection... It ain't fooling those who know what the real deal looks like.

Tai chi looks like hand to hand combat, as much as Brazilian jiu-jitsu does, to a layperson. However there are no, never have been, and never will be any tai chi practitioners professionally fighting.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:14 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I am perfectly willing to admit I don'thave a clue about table training but there also seems to be an attitude of we -being in the club know what it is and you who are not in the club don't-and quite frankly I don't...but there also does not seem to be an attempt to educate those of use who don't. Haven't read the whole thread but if a dog is put on the table and cowers etc-in my opinion it isn't the dog who shouldn't be training-a good trainer in my opinion cares about and is fair to the dog-I have done schutzhund-never table training and I am not sure I have missed anything I think there are lots of different ways to train dogs-don't really believe that you have to use table training to bring out aggression-although the thing I miss most about schutzhund is sushi (so obviously not the best person to be giving out schutzhund advice)
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:24 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I think if you logically honestly look at it, you'd agree. The dog can have a big fun and games jamboree with a sleeved helper, but that just *looks* like protection... It ain't fooling those who know what the real deal looks like.

Tai chi looks like hand to hand combat, as much as Brazilian jiu-jitsu does, to a layperson. However there are no, never have been, and never will be any tai chi practitioners professionally fighting.
Not necessarily. There are people that can look at a dog, without seeing it on a sleeve and they can give you already a judgement of whether "Yes." or "No" and the bitework is only to confirm what was already obvious.
There is much more to a dog than seeing him on a sleeve.

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Old 12-02-2012, 02:45 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Well, that's your opinion, not mine.

Even if the dog is worked in prey, a trained and experienced eye can always see through a dog and see their quality. I am doing SchH for fun, not because I need a PPD or because I want to compete at the WUSV. I do it because I enjoy doing it and not because I want to proof something to the rest of the world. I know what I've got and I want to grow with it.

If that's your opinion, and you have newbies, primarily work their dogs in defense, rather than prey, without them knowing how to handle, it or knowing what they have in their hands, that's a disaster waiting to happen. You have to grow with your dog and I wouldn't want anyone work their dog in defense if they are new to the sport.
Don't make implications or statements like that on a public forum which may undermine people's faith in my helper work who may read this, when it is not the case at all what you just said regarding how I work dogs. I assure you, no one I work with does not get a lengthy explanation as to the what, how, and why of every exercise. I train each dog how the handler and I feel that that dog needs to be trained. That's a wide array of training too broad to paint with one brush like that

Your goals are your goals. Have fun with it by all means.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:49 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Not necessarily. There are people that can look at a dog, without seeing it on a sleeve and they can give you already a judgement of whether "Yes." or "No" and the bitework is only to confirm what was already obvious.
There is much more to a dog than seeing him on a sleeve.
Lol.

Yeah, that's why we toss the sleeve and use tables and muzzles, and alternative exercises

And no one can just look at a dog and say anything stronger than a questionable guess. If that were true, getting puppies wouldn't be so risky for top sport/ppd/etc work

I do training helper work many times a week, every week. I have an advantage when it comes to reading a dog I would guess
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:11 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Lol.

Yeah, that's why we toss the sleeve and use tables and muzzles, and alternative exercises

And no one can just look at a dog and say anything stronger than a questionable guess. If that were true, getting puppies wouldn't be so risky for top sport/ppd/etc work

I do training helper work many times a week, every week. I have an advantage when it comes to reading a dog I would guess
Sorry, but there is a big difference between a puppy and an adult and a mature dog. And yes, there are people that can look at an adult, matured dog, and judge the dog based on what they have in front of them. You don't need a sleeve to get a first impression of a dog. You don't need a sleeve to see that a dog is a nerve bag, you don't need a sleeve to see how a dog carries himself, or if a dog is confident or not or has drive.


If you need a sleeve for that... well...
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