Working your dog in defense

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by Vandal

I think " all prey" is relative, in that the kind of dog you are working, matters quite a bit. Prey work was introduced when the dogs were a heck of alot more serious, due to genetics and to a lesser degree, how they were trained. It was used to relieve the pressure and to channel the aggression into the bite. The dog learned they could get calmness in the bite.

I have a female who is really serious. No helper will be needing to get right on top of us to get aggression from her, that's for sure. I don't have super talented helpers but I tell the one who does know some things, to stand still, let her bark and then do nothing but prey attractions before the bite is offered. No one watching that dog has considered for one minute that she was an "all prey" dog, that's for sure. In the beginning, when she was much younger, she would bite what was offered. Amazing how some people offer their body more than the sleeve when they are in front of dogs like her but some of them did. lol.
Anyway, while not "all prey", most of it is and no matter how much a helper swings that sleeve around, she will never view the work differently. She will channel the aggression into the bite/sleeve but the helper will not be her playmate and if there is no sleeve there, she will bite him.... if he so desires.

There are now dogs who will change and it becomes all about the sleeve and not at all about the man. They are lacking the heart and courage to take a man on if you ask me. This is why some are constantly trying to pressure their dogs in order to "fix" that. Many times you can't. You can make the dog more serious but they will never view it like the female I just talked about. It is not in their genetics.

Oddly, my dog would be the kind that SchH people might think there is something "wrong" with, because she won't play with them. She means it, its the social aggression we talked about in the other thread, but is again, something most people don't understand anymore. It is active aggression that does not require big threatening actions from the helper. Once she figured out what it was about, she sees him and it's on. She doesn't need running, whip popping or someone right there with a claw shaped hand....she loads when she sees him or suspects that he is nearby.

My male is the same way. He is aggressive by default. He will be in primarily prey when working on me, and I have a few club members I work him on that I only do prey work on bc they give affection off the field which drops his aggression anyway, and I need to work in prey sometimes to teach new things

To be fair, there are also dogs fixated on objects bc of training error

[x11]

what about the accomplished bite-work dog that sees/smells its first camel approaching it (lol) and hits the end of the leash trying to get out of dodge and snarls at the suicidal handler who just wants to hang out with the nice friendly lama - is that dog a defensive nerve bag POS.

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by x11

what about the accomplished bite-work dog that sees/smells its first camel approaching it (lol) and hits the end of the leash trying to get out of dodge and snarls at the suicidal handler who just wants to hang out with the nice friendly lama - is that dog a defensive nerve bag POS.

Was it a two hump or one hump camel? Did the lama spit? If a lama spit at me I'd run or at least put some distance between us

[lhczth]

Originally Posted by x11

what about the accomplished bite-work dog that sees/smells its first camel approaching it (lol) and hits the end of the leash trying to get out of dodge and snarls at the suicidal handler who just wants to hang out with the nice friendly lama - is that dog a defensive nerve bag POS.

All animals, man included, will come upon something that they will want to run from. A species would not survive if there was no fear at all. What brings about this reaction will depend on the individual, but it is there in us all.

[x11]

agreed so does that make some apparently strong nerve dogs just well pre-conditioned and socialised dogs with loads of exposure to bizzare stimulus and conversely some apparently weak nerve dogs just dogs that have been deprived an opportunitty to overcome perceived threatening stimulus. eg the "brave" dogs that run thru smoke, sirens, gunfire (sounds) at men in gorilla suits waving armsfull of streamers etc. if nerve were intrinsically genetic then environmental conditioning training would make no difference would it not?

[Liesje]

I agree and disagree. I think nerve IS genetic, but it's not like a dog comes out of the womb and plops on one spot in the "nerve" spectrum and that's it, end of story. I think a dog is genetically born with a point at each end of where they *might* end up on that spectrum, and the training and socialization that actually happens will narrow down where that dog ends up within the limits of the nerve he was born with, but training and socialization cannot push a dog outside of where it might fall based on genetics. Is that fair?

I don't really discount a dog's nerves just based on a one-time, narrow example though, I think that's a bit unfair but if you can observe the dog repeatedly (or obviously if you own the dog) you can get a good sense of your dog's temperament. For example my dog growled and barked at a horse the first time he saw one. But now he has seen them many times and pays them no attention. Does that mean he has terrible nerves? I don't think so, but it does offer another example of how he's alert to his surroundings and a fairly serious dog. I live in the city and the sorts of things my dogs encounter daily I often see my training acquaintances having to proof their dogs on before BH temperament tests and stuff like that.

[lhczth]

I am not sure if you are actually asking a question or just making a statement.

IMO nerves are genetic. You will never create courage (a human trait) in a weak nerved dog just like there are people who fall apart under pressure even with extensive amounts of training.

[onyx'girl]

Originally Posted by x11

agreed so does that make some apparently strong nerve dogs just well pre-conditioned and socialised dogs with loads of exposure to bizzare stimulus and conversely some apparently weak nerve dogs just dogs that have been deprived an opportunitty to overcome perceived threatening stimulus. eg the "brave" dogs that run thru smoke, sirens, gunfire (sounds) at men in gorilla suits waving armsfull of streamers etc. if nerve were intrinsically genetic then environmental conditioning training would make no difference would it not?

Working a dog in different scenarios teaches the handler more about the dog. Because anything can happen and knowing as much as possible going into an unknown experience helps both handler and dog.
Water exercises as an example.
This thread posted last night shows we don't know what we don't know: With all the bragging about Beau and his sound progress
Better to hopefully know a bit more before being tested and that can't happen unless we train for it.

[x11]

ok thanks, then if you consider schutshund a licence for breed worthiness as i understand the original intention and not a sport for something to do with yr dog should the trial field be so dam predictable - nerve is genetic, schutshund tests genetics primarily (+training) so should it not follow that the traditionaltest of gsd "breeding" worthiness should include some curve-balls like a rabbit running across the field in obed, or a female heat scent across a track or......

not bagging schuts - i admire it, just trying to make sense of things.

[onyx'girl]

Originally Posted by x11

ok thanks, then if you consider schutshund a licence for breed worthiness as i understand the original intention and not a sport for something to do with yr dog should the trial field be so dam predictable - nerve is genetic, schutshund tests genetics primarily (+training) so should it not follow that the traditionaltest of gsd "breeding" worthiness should include some curve-balls like a rabbit running across the field in obed, or a female heat scent across a track or......

not bagging schuts - i admire it, just trying to make sense of things.

It happens often, or a cat can be lingering on the edge of the field(in training as well), have you been to a trial?