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Old 11-28-2012, 11:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Hello from Australia, GSD Lover, Question: Am I on the right Track here?

Hello, 60+ year old in Australia, travel and camp in the Outback with Business and private, and sometimes with horses.. Have raised two Shepherds, my large Male Black and Tan Dakota is too large for a Show Dog, 67 cm, going on ten and on serious medication for Dysplasia. Also have a bitch, Tonka, 6 year old, very laid back and lets Dakota (Cody) do all the work. Cody shows aggression on command, very obedient, hand signals for all normal things, and tries but is clueless on herding and often sends them the wrong way with his enthusiasm..

I am out Bush a lot, around the fire, and am feeling the need for a PP Dog. I am picking up a straight back all Black working GSD German lines type dog, puppy, in mid January at 10 weeks old. Cody, my Senior Dog is an arched back drop hips Show dog type, because I did not know better. Tonka the companion bitch, 6 y.o. is a more straight back working dog type. I want a strong deterent type PP dog, as I am out on my horse property usually alone, and travel alone. I got these two GSDs to protect my Daughters as we travelled competing NRHA Reining Horses, but they have now grown up. They were just presence deterent only, but Cody would do more if pressed.

I want this new Black Puppy to be fearless and enter serious training at about 1 year. At two years I intend to get another, so I can always drop one off for training while I am on the road with the other for PP around the fire and protecting trucks and equipment and property.

I am asking if I am on track with the following ideas, as you all seem to know your business from what I read:

1) Only train with praise and treats and positives for a PP Dog. Never scold seriously or punish..
2) Let him win with tug of war and other games to build confidence. Only use my dominance if he gets too far out of line to set his boundries with me as his Alpha Male..
3) Obedience train only for the first year with confidence building..
4) I am hoping Cody will help train the pup by copying the behavior of the Alpha dog, but Cody is fading fast, but will try and have him learn from Cody.
5) I will never let the puppy be loose with them or play off lead, to keep him from joint injury for the first year. No jumping or hard long running or escessive exercise.
6) At one year old, maybe start Shutzhund, as I also want this pup to be able to help herd the cattle into pens, like when I open a gate to call them in..
7) Training will be for the PP side, that takes two people, and I will board him for up to 5-6 weeks for that.

Thank you for your comments in advance. Population density here is so much less, that the distances to Trainers and ShH is hours away. I thank you for your help....

lone Ranger, half a Horseman out on the "Last Frontier" in Australia
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:12 AM   #2 (permalink)
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hi, some of the questions;

schutshund has nothing to do with pp training.

you would be an absolute fool to leave yr dog ANYWHERE with ANYONE for pp training.

it will take at least 18 months to see if a dog can even be considered for pp training, you want the puppy to start serious training at one year - only an unethical person that wants to take yr money and have no problems abusing yr dog would tell you that is even possible.
most dogs won't be capable. just cos of breed does not make it capable. people that need these dogs look at many dogs over many countries to find prospects, most wash out under training.

you think you will find one as a pup - from what lines and who is the breeder we can tell you if you are even remotely on the right path.

australia only has prolly less than 6 legit breeders that would even have lines suitable.

the only real way to get a ppd is to buy a finished adult - in the states these dogs sell for $60k and up.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:37 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Howdy from Victoria
No idea how to train a PP dog so won;t go there but if you were in Melbourne Von Forrell might be worth a look as they do help with training etc also Brooksvale kennels if you were in Adelaide also one in Brisbane but the name escapes me right now.
Good luck and welcome....you will get a lot of great info here if you stick around.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:02 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Nice X11 ... can you be any more rude???

OP ... we're not all like that!!! I'll rephrase some of X11's post .. because it does have some helpful information, just lacks some honey in the delivery.

"you would be an absolute fool to leave yr dog ANYWHERE with ANYONE for pp training"

Leaving your dog with a trainer for any type of training is generally a bad idea. The idea of training your dog is to have YOU work with the dog so the dog becomes bonded with you and your family. Of course, you will need the services of a professional trainer to show you / instruct you how to work with your dog for the things you want / need in your dog.


it will take at least 18 months to see if a dog can even be considered for pp training, you want the puppy to start serious training at one year - only an unethical person that wants to take yr money and have no problems abusing yr dog would tell you that is even possible.
most dogs won't be capable. just cos of breed does not make it capable. people that need these dogs look at many dogs over many countries to find prospects, most wash out under training.

The type of training that you want certainly does take longer than a year ... I'm not a trainer in any of these aspects, but have an 18-month old GSD, and I can tell you right now, that she has definitely matured and done very well, but I wouldn't be able to see her ready for protection / etc. at this age.

you think you will find one as a pup - from what lines and who is the breeder we can tell you if you are even remotely on the right path.

SIGH ... you might "remotely" be on the right path ... or you might be on the "exact" path ... if you are looking for advice from the experts on this forum, then yes, some more information would be extremely beneficial.


the only real way to get a ppd is to buy a finished adult - in the states these dogs sell for $60k and up

I don't know if this is the ONLY way, but it could be an option that you are willing to explore, with advice and information from others on the board that have more experience.

I wish you luck, and hope others can provide you with the information you are seeking.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:12 AM   #5 (permalink)
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The only *reliable* way is to buy a trained adult. You certainly can have a *real* PPD that you raised from a pup, but just like raising a SchH pup, they can washout or hit a catastrophic bump in the road at any time. That's why a promising pup is $2k, and the same dog still promising at 2 is dramatically more.

OP: for the first 6 months to year, act as though the puppy can do no wrong. If he bites you, dangle a toy to redirect him... Don't discourage him from being mouthy. Let him do whatever he wants.

For every truly skilled PP or general bite work trainer there are a handful of bad ones.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I would think if the dog is from good breeding stock, proper temperament (protective by nature) you don't need real formal PP training or to leave your dog for training. Having a solid black GSD that is naturally protective, will bark/warn and shows obedience to the handler is often quite scary enough. Enjoy your new dog!
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:39 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
I would think if the dog is from good breeding stock, proper temperament (protective by nature) you don't need real formal PP training or to leave your dog for training. Having a solid black GSD that is naturally protective, will bark/warn and shows obedience to the handler is often quite scary enough. Enjoy your new dog!
Given his unique situation, I assume he also wants protection from the various beasties that roam that continent lol. In that case it may require more, including not engaging when another animal is initiating. Make sense?
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:48 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Yeah but many of us teach that without sending away for PP training. I take my dogs with me on 2 week vacation in the national forest every summer and have to be able to call them off all sorts of animals (or likewise let them critter). That's just regular training depending on one's lifestyle. It just sounds to me like the OP already has a good handle on GSDs and training and could probably achieve what he wants without paying an arm and a leg for board-and-train, assuming the dog has good nerves.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Yeah but many of us teach that without sending away for PP training. I take my dogs with me on 2 week vacation in the national forest every summer and have to be able to call them off all sorts of animals (or likewise let them critter). That's just regular training depending on one's lifestyle. It just sounds to me like the OP already has a good handle on GSDs and training and could probably achieve what he wants without paying an arm and a leg for board-and-train, assuming the dog has good nerves.
I agree, and I don't think SchH is even the right path for his goals
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Wow, some good stuff here... My responses from the other side of the world may not be timely, right now it is 6:30 AM Friday morning, and Thursday afternoon to evening for you..

All of you have given me great input, and I thank you.. Even the Fast Draw x11... Blunt but to the point... Kyleigh, very kind of you for the warm welcome, and translation of the Quick Draw x11. I thank you Liesje, for the good input. HunterisGreat, I have seen many of your posts, thankyou.. I think maybe further explanation is necessary and you may find it interesting:

To the extreme of PPD, Dogs are offered in Australia all the way to take down "Man Stopper" for around $10,000 and up. Money is not the issue, I wanted to raise the puppy to bond with me to trust him around my family. I may not need a professional PPD, but aggression on command could be handy when I am having to go down to my Factory premises off hours, or the odd drunken carload out way out thousand of kms in the Bush. One of you talked about animals here, nothing of danger but snakes and I have tried to teach my GSDs to bark but stay out of range... I will give you some interesting details:

My Breeder was recommending a Trainer and Kennel in Melbourne, I will get the name. Here is the missing pieces: The issue is I am going on the road with Bushtracker my Company, to National Shows, and one big trip is 5 weeks March/April Melbourne and across the Nullarbor to Perth 7000 kms each way. These big Shows are about a week/ten days each and if he went with me he would have to be Kenneled in Melbourne and Perth as no dogs allowed at these National Shows. I am Bush camping across Australia, with around $500,000 in trucks and equipment, in uncivilized or developed wild country like west Texas. PPD? Unfortunately no guns allowed in Australia for Interstate travel. Like a mile of red tape near impossible Interstate. Older Man, with two high end trucks and $250k + in Bushtracker vans? It can be spooky with the fire flickering of the Bush shadows tired late at night...

Now on the 1 year old concern: Oct 2012 Puppy, I have arranged to leave him with his Breeder for more Obedience training March 2013 for the five weeks, as a 5 month old. Next 2014 Show trip south, I thought at 17 months, he might enter some basic PPD training with that Melbourne Trainer.. I know I said a year, with horses it is year by year, but he would be 17 months, so Questions to you Experts in America:

1) Now I have clarified, do you still think 17 month too early for basic PPD foundation training? Nothing rough, just the beginning.?????
2) Or: Would it be better to leave him in a kennel a week/ten days at a time so he could still travel with me at 17 months?
3) I do not necessarily have to have a Professional PPD, I thought I would just take him in that direction as far as he could handle. Maybe get another one started in two years for a leap frog overlap of one travelling with me while the other in training. That way in the worst case scenario, snake bit, or .... I would have a back up "Best Mate" and not be left alone again like I am now with Cody fading away. I am still in shock in shortly to lose Dakota (Cody)..
4) HunterisGreat, I thought the SchH would be good for herding help I could use on my horse property, tracking for a potential rescue servide, and any further direction to PPD is just a bonus. Maybe my PPD interest is not that serious of a requirement, and I thought if he showed the right temperment it could go on from there... There is not the real crime element here in the Bush, more security around the fire on those dark nights. The Nullarbor is 4000 kms, like West Texas around 1880 without much civilized accommodations, better to camp out Bush out of sight of the road... PPD is just a direction, for a comfort zone to an Older Man...

I thank you all for your kind input, by way of real Thank You with meaning, you are welcome on my Owners Forum for free, thousands of Posts and pictures of very remote Australia with Bushtracker. Google Bushtracker Website, there is a free link to the Owners Forum, I am not selling anything to you, this is free and a gift to see some of remote Australia in 4x4.. (not spam, my way of offering thanks for your help)... I made all my mistakes with the first two GSDs, and want to get it right this time.

Kind regards from a GSD Dog Lover in Oz.. So much in love with "Dances with Wolves" I am doing a dead of winter expedition by Arctic SnowCat for ten days into Yellowstone to see the wolves in action beginning of Jan...

lone Ranger, out on the "Last Frontier" in Oz ..... (Oz, Australia Mate)...
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