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Old 11-15-2012, 01:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Cool point chooser

So I see a lot of time people recommend doing "a" instead of "b" in the case that "x" happens in a trial, because you lose less points doing "a".

For a very obvious example: if the dog is running back to you on dumbbell retrieve and is coming in a little crooked, you obviously would rather him sit crooked then move your feet because it should be 0 points if handler moves, whereas you only lose a few points if dog comes in crooked. This was just a very obvious example to drive home the point of this thread.

Now, I know points are not the end all be all of schutzhund trials. But, I thought it could be a good idea to start a thread with specific questions regarding which of the two options will lose more points.

So, I can start...

In my IPO1 trial, C phase, I send the dog to blind 5. Dog starts veering towards blind 6 (i.e. skipping 5) because of my training first and foremost but also because he saw the helper go into blind 6. I gave 2nd command almost immediately and dog runs to blind 5 and then 6. What would be more points deduction? Giving second command, or letting dog skip blind 5?

I know the whole search is just 5 points, but it's one example where I wasn't sure which is better.

So, feel free to answer this question and if you are relatively new (as I am) feel free to post your own questions.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:28 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I love this topic! Will be watching closely for other stories and helpful answers!


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Old 11-15-2012, 01:36 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ayoitzrimz View Post
In my IPO1 trial, C phase, I send the dog to blind 5. Dog starts veering towards blind 6 (i.e. skipping 5) because of my training first and foremost but also because he saw the helper go into blind 6. I gave 2nd command almost immediately and dog runs to blind 5 and then 6. What would be more points deduction? Giving second command, or letting dog skip blind 5?

I know the whole search is just 5 points, but it's one example where I wasn't sure which is better.

So, feel free to answer this question and if you are relatively new (as I am) feel free to post your own questions.
OK I think in IPO1 level you did the right thing, -2 for extra command or -5 for not running any blinds..... This changes some for IPO3 when the blind search is 10 points, -2 for skipping a blind, -2 for extra command....-4 if you give the second command and he still skips the blind...so if you are going to give the extra command, be sure he is going to do it.

This is also part of being a handler, if I let him skip blinds do I loose control later....Or as I had a softer dog, If I gave a strong second command, then he was worried, better fot me to loose the 2 points and have him go into the blind feeling strong.....So part is knowing the points, but part is also knowing your dog


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Old 11-15-2012, 05:12 PM   #4 (permalink)
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How about slight handler help Vs. the dog missing the sit, down or stand in motion? I am talking maybe a shifting of the shoulder, slight hesitation in the pace, type of slight help. Not talking about what one of our members did on the stand when they reached down and put their hand on the dog's chest. -5 pts for missing the exercise Vs. ? points for the slight handler help.

Or, allowing the dog to go early on the send out instead of giving a second command to stay in the heel?

Another one I have seen. Handler outing the dumbbell almost immediately once dog is in the front position instead of waiting the 3 seconds. This is in the case of dogs that like to turn dumbbells into kindling.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:09 AM   #5 (permalink)
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How about slight handler help Vs. the dog missing the sit, down or stand in motion? I am talking maybe a shifting of the shoulder, slight hesitation in the pace, type of slight help. Not talking about what one of our members did on the stand when they reached down and put their hand on the dog's chest. -5 pts for missing the exercise Vs. ? points for the slight handler help.
Handler help is not a set deduction. It will go into the overall picture of the exercise and effect the rating, very slight may only know it to high very good, -.5 or maybe a little more help low SG -1. Heavy Handler help maybe knocks it to Good -1.5 to -2 pts... But the rules also say that if the judge deems that the dog would not have done the exercise without the help ALL points are lost....

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Or, allowing the dog to go early on the send out instead of giving a second command to stay in the heel?

This I would absolutely just give the command and try to hide it that the dog was leaving early, too small a buildup is a VERY small deduction, leaving early on own will be a effect the overall picture, how early, 2 steps short or handler says foss and dog takes off...But for me I would hide it if possible take the small hit and have the dog go fast...



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Another one I have seen. Handler outing the dumbbell almost immediately once dog is in the front position instead of waiting the 3 seconds. This is in the case of dogs that like to turn dumbbells into kindling.
Again the overall picture, you can tell when it is the dog is going to have wood chips flying out of his mouth or just the handler is nervous... Club trial it would range from -1 to -3... Championship it is flat out faulty, handler did not show 3 seconds and I would know it 2 catagories for skipping a big part of the exercise.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:41 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Long down is a spot where it's good to know the point break down (how far the dog can move for X-deduction, how long it has to stay still before it can break and still earn points, etc).
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:58 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Long down is a spot where it's good to know the point break down (how far the dog can move for X-deduction, how long it has to stay still before it can break and still earn points, etc).


If dog breaks long down before the end of IPO1 ex 3, IPO2 ex 4, IPO3 ex 5 by more then 3 meters, 0 points…..If after the completion of those exercise then partial points are awarded accordingly. The dog can move up to 3 meters without it being considered as "broke the down". However depending on how much it moves will effect the overall rating of the exercise and result in a according point deduction...If the dog moves around a lot the down could still be considered insufficient but not all 10 gone, anything over -3.5 is insufficient.

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Old 11-18-2012, 06:40 PM   #8 (permalink)
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How timely! Just talked about this during a trial last weekend. Dog was sent for the send out, didn't go the whole distance, turned & stood there looking at me(didn't give a second command as I knew she wasn't going any further). I waited, for the judge to cue for the down...and waited... finally just told dog to down & she downed right away.
The discussion was about if I should have just downed her as soon as she stopped & turned rather than waiting for the judge.
Having never been in that situation before, I was a bit flustered at what to do chose to wait for the judge to cue for the down, rather than giving the command to down on my own.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:43 PM   #9 (permalink)
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What did the judge say about it during your critique? I think you did the right thing!
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thank you, Frank.
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