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Old 11-08-2012, 03:38 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Watch Sieger show videos and there are many examples. Not that those are the only dogs or locations I've seen it, but the most common example with readily accessible video to view that I can think of.
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:38 PM   #22 (permalink)
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What I don't get is a lot of the dogs I see crawling (especially when anticipating the attack exercise) are then very slow on the attack, don't put much power in the bite and/or actually slide down or off the sleeve. So if the dog is crawling out of drive and desire to bite then why is the overall picture so poor?
Very good question Lies. I will say this however, in the other thread, I used the crawling behavior in my comments, to try to clarify what I was talking about. Didn't work. It was not the main point, just a comment about the behavior I saw in certain dogs years ago .
It is an odd behavior and other trainers, (who have trained almost as long or longer than I have), have seen it as well and are of the same " WTH?" mentality. lol.

It is a level of dullness, non-compliance, resistance to correction, shut down behavior that makes these dogs almost un-trainable and certainly unpleasant to train. It is not drive related nor is it a result of brutal compulsion. I almost wrote a book about it on the euro list when Caro Allerswald was discussed.

With the SL dogs who were like this, if you could get them to respond, it was the "oh you just killed me" behavior. The Bungalow dogs would just fight with you.....bite, resist and only comply with the least amount of effort possible. No, it is not a drive related behavior. It is something else entirely.

That's all I have to say, it is not possible to make it clear on a forum, you have to see it and experience it.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:53 PM   #23 (permalink)
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What other thread was this discussion in? I'll have to go look up it up. Sounds like the type of crawling that Anne is talking about is different than what I've seen that I'd call crawling. I think I know what sort of "crawl" Anne is talking about but I've only seen it once or twice in older videos, not in real life.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:58 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I think there are different types. I don't think most of us are thinking of what Anne is talking about. Watching some of the more recent Seiger Show videos I see a lot of dogs that look "crawly" (not alert, heads low, movement loose) and are sniffing the ground. Do you think they sniff because of stress or are they really that uninterested in the work that they will sniff around instead of pay attention?
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:02 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I would say the sniffing is stress. Avoidance behavior/calming signals. What I think of when I hear of "crawling" is that slinking behavior where they look like they want to be anywhere but where they are, showing a lot of avoidant body language and stress related displacement behaviors like lip licking, sniffing, etc.... Different from stalking, where the dog is holding the body and head low, but is tense and alert and ready to pounce.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:05 PM   #26 (permalink)
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It basically comes down to clarifying which behavior we are talking about.
One is crawling, the other is stalking. Just like with the other topic where you have sensitivity or softness.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:14 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Maybe the term "slinking" would make more sense. I believe this is more what Anne means.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:54 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Hello....It doesn't matter what I meant, I was using that example as a symptom of a certain type of temperament. I could offer other examples but after this...I don't think I'd better. lol. You guys are getting too caught up in it.

I was talking about a weird level of hardness that I saw in some of the older show line dogs. I have talked about WL dogs who are similar also. Both, just didn't show any aptitude for obedience. Unwilling, just not interested in pleasing the handler. You can have a hard dog who is also compliant and willing or where there is another way to motivate them. The dogs I am talking about...nope....they just refused and I guess most people will only understand if I do use the term stubborn.

Most people will read this and think...uh huh, the dogs she is talking about were corrected too hard or beaten up and that's why. Nope, that didn't happen either but I sure felt like doing that. I think a Jack Ass would respond faster, (and with a better attitude), than those dogs did.

A level of hardness is necessary in the breed but this was way beyond that and I feel something else was going on there as well. Not something I found desirable at all. Like I said, the other people who have experinced dogs like this were of the same "Holy Mackerel what is WRONG with you?" opinion of the dogs, that I had. You don't forget dogs like that, they are that unpleasant to work with.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:14 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Anne, I think I know the temperament you're talking about. We had a dog from completely different lines than the ones you mentioned who was similar to some of the things you're talking about. Not the hardness, but the total unwillingness and disinterest. Almost impossible dog to motivate. She had drive, but would only use it in situations where she was essentially free, and there were no expectations. Playing ball, sure. Doing obedience, never. As soon as it became about working for the handler, all motivation was gone. Very untrainable dog in many ways. The world revolved around her and while a sweet dog in general there was zero desire to do anything for anyone else. Reminded me more of a cat than anything. She had her own agenda and if you could find a way to make her think it was all her idea, she'd play along, but as soon as any behaviors were asked for she'd just walk away. She could be dancing in circles for her dinner bowl, but ask her to sit and you'd get a dirty look and she'd walk away, now completely disinterested in it because she was asked to earn it. Compulsion wasn't an option because she'd shut down at the slightest correction. Stubborn really did seem to be the best word for her. She lived with us to 13 as just a house pet, and actually was a delightful pet and easy to live with most of the time, since there weren't really any expectations beyond being a pet and nothing was really required of her. But it really was more like living with a 60lb cat than a dog.
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