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Old 04-02-2012, 01:23 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Schutzhund vs PSA?

Hello everyone!

I'm curious as to the actual differences between PSA and Schutzhund.

I was just recently contacted by a breeder who informed me that she does not do Schutzhund with her dogs, but does do PSA. Here is a quote from her email to me:

Quote:
[...] many of my dogs have ZVV or SVV or IPO titles as their is no Sch in Czech as Sch is a sport dedicated to the SV or the USA and the czechs must travel to Germany to compete . IPO is very close but ruled by the FCI not the SV, These titles are more demanding and difficult than Sch but very close. [...] I do not do Sch as i do not like it is not my thing we do PSA the hardest dog sport there is. [...] Many of my dogs have IPO ZVVI titles some have Sch titles as I purchased the dogs titled as they have the bloodlines i want . Very few gsd can do PSA it it is sport ruled by and created for the Malinois.
I've read a little bit about PSA, but the website for it (Home) didn't have much in the way of details, so I was curious as to what the difference is between the two, if one really is more difficult/demanding than the other, etc.

Thanks!

Kaci
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:40 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Hrmm,

I just realized that I may have posted this in the wrong area. If I should move this to the forums that deal with these sports, please let me know.

Sorry!

Kaci
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
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This is a quote from another website when asking a very similar question. HTH

Quote:
For protection: PSA and Mondioring use heavy enviormental distractions/pressure with numerous objects; PSA uses heavy voice opposition (yelling from decoys) while Mondioring uses no voice opposition; French Ring uses a gun and a clatter stick but no voice opposition from the decoys; Shutzhund uses a padded stick and some voice opposition; Schutzhund is dominated by the GSD's while the Belgium Malinois dominates all the other sports.
Also another quote

Quote:
PSA - slightly patterend sport. You know what will be in each level but don't know the order. This can throw off some dogs. Most of the bitework is "courage tests" which can be very difficult for some dogs and it is mentally taxing. Both the obedience and the bitework has heavy distractions. The surprise senarios can be quite intense. It is a sport, but somewhat applicable to real life.

Schutzhund - HIGHLY patterned. Your obedience routine is memorized, and some advanced dogs can run the patterns without a handler on the field (I haven't seen it, but have first hand accounts.) The bitework is also highly patterned, and though there is a good deal of pressure, there are no surprises. The tracking is not real world at all, the dog's nose has to stay on the ground to get a good score. Yes, they have to find the object and indicate on it, but real world tracking involves air senting and some casting around. It is touted as the ultimate test of a dog, but in my opinion, in it's current state, it is a test of training. You can teach a dog to do everything it needs to, strict patterns help weaker dogs pass just due to getting accostomed to the unchanging patterns. The tracking, of course, tests a dog's nose but you can teach the dog not to pick its head up and that is a big part of your tracking score. All bites are on the sleeve.
Mind you, I am not familiar with the sports this is simply what I googled.

Last edited by Narny; 04-02-2012 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:58 AM   #4 (permalink)
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One of the big differences of course is that SchH has a tracking phase, while PSA does not.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:18 AM   #5 (permalink)
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A good trainer can title a weak/nervy dog in ScHH, this can never happen in PSA.The pressure they put on a dog during trial is tremendous, nothing like SchH.

Once you observe both trials, you will see the big difference.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:58 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josie/Zeus View Post
A good trainer can title a weak/nervy dog in ScHH, this can never happen in PSA.The pressure they put on a dog during trial is tremendous, nothing like SchH.

Once you observe both trials, you will see the big difference.

I too second this. If you watch both trails there is a big differnce. Joise and I both train PSA at our muti-sport club. I took these descriptions off your site for you to review. I think they sum it up pretty well.

PSA Protection Sports Association provide and outlet for civilian competition in Obedience and controlled Protection, heavy decoy and environmental pressure of the sport requiring dogs of strongest nerve and clearest head to overcome distractions and at the same time performing multiple tasks giving by handler, upper level competition are all suprised scnenario, no routine.

Schutzhund a sport that requires a high level of handler commitment, a strong working dog and all routine training. The scoring is based on precision of the exercises including a 3 phase sport; tracking, obedience and protection. If you can take a puppy and train to Schutzhund 3 then you have become a dog trainer.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:21 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I train in PSA, have been for about a year now (so still a newbie), but I love it. There are quite a few higher level dogs in our club, and we just had a trial in which we had level 2 and level 3 dogs competing.
A couple of our club members do train in SchH but I really am not that familiar with it, so I can only comment on the PSA half of this discussion.

Most of what Narny quoted is fairly accurate in my experience. Except for maybe this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Narny View Post
Most of the bitework is "courage tests" which can be very difficult for some dogs and it is mentally taxing.
Granted there are quite of few scenerios that are more like "courage tests". But even at entry levels, those types of bites really only make up half the required bites, and much less than half in the 3s.
In a PDC (most basic certification), there are two bites. One is a surprise attack on the handler from behind, which is a very short bite once the dog spins around. The second bite is a courage test.
Very well done PDC:

I've actually seen more dogs get ran in the surprise attack type bites than the courage test. You really have to see that type of work in person to grasp the amount of pressure the decoy (and environmentals) puts on the dog.
And there is a significant difference between the PDC and the 2s or 3s, in terms of pressure.

The PSA3 national champ '11, protection phase (long vid):
--the dog does makes a mistake on the "voran" command, he is supposed to guard, he bites multiple times.

And one of the major differences is that starting in the 1s, you do your obedience routine with at least 1 decoy on the field. In the 2s, there are 3 decoys, and they're allowed to vocalize, throw things, jog around, but no "agitation". In the 3s obedience, the decoys are sometimes actively trying to get your dog to break away and bite, and you're expected to keep the dog in attention heeling the whole time.

In the 2s and 3s OB, there is food refusal and retrieves (any object).

PSA is definitely a sport dominated by Mals, especially at the higher levels and at nationals.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:28 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Here is another thread discussing PSA v. other sports. And as usual, Cliff makes some very good points:
PSA vs other sports.
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Old 04-02-2012, 12:01 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielleOttoMom View Post
I too second this. If you watch both trails there is a big differnce. Joise and I both train PSA at our muti-sport club. I took these descriptions off your site for you to review. I think they sum it up pretty well.

PSA Protection Sports Association provide and outlet for civilian competition in Obedience and controlled Protection, heavy decoy and environmental pressure of the sport requiring dogs of strongest nerve and clearest head to overcome distractions and at the same time performing multiple tasks giving by handler, upper level competition are all suprised scnenario, no routine.

Schutzhund a sport that requires a high level of handler commitment, a strong working dog and all routine training. The scoring is based on precision of the exercises including a 3 phase sport; tracking, obedience and protection. If you can take a puppy and train to Schutzhund 3 then you have become a dog trainer.
For the most part, I agree with the generalizations except the "all routine training." I'm training a dog for a SchH2 and don't do *any* routine training. In fact his last several rounds of protection have not involve any SchH exercises or equipment, some even doing armpit and collar bone bites on a suit. I can't stand training a dog just for routines or exercises regardless of the venue. Yesterday we were training and joking about doing some protection work where the dog would have to try to run up a slide to get to the helper at the top of the playground.

I do Schutzhund and SDA with my dogs, and SDA I gather is more like PSA than SchH. The training and trial involve a lot more pressure if done correctly. Unfortunately I can't say that overall, the dogs have more courage and more nerve since I've seen some pretty nervey behaviors pass (as long as the dog is still moving "forward", engaging, barking, etc but a nervy dog can do these things and still look like its half a second away from running to hide). I won't say SchH is less pressure on a dog because in training I like it all the same. SchH or SDA doesn't matter, we setup the sessions and scenarios to build the dog and test the dog. In trial, at least in trials I have actually entered my dogs in, the SDA trials put more pressure on the dog.
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Old 04-02-2012, 12:16 PM   #10 (permalink)
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There is no way a nervy dog will pass PSA, the pressure is much too intense. Not around here anyway.
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