Table work

Catu · 12-30-2011, 12:24 AM

Protección 18.12.2011.wmv - YouTube

I admit we don't really have a plan with Akela's protection work, since I can barely train once a month and from one to the other, giving his age, it can be a world of difference.

It was my helper idea to try the table to encourage more pulling and I'd be happy to read all kind of comments about this work, since I admit it is new to me.

We are using the soft sleeve only because it was the only one available at the moment. I feel it encourages more prey and less seriousness as I've seen other times with the hard sleeve.

Comments and criticizing is welcome, since the three of us are learning in the process.

Vandal · 12-30-2011, 01:34 AM

Well right off the bat I will say a couple of things. First, he is a very nice dog with lots of fight drive...of course...

Second, when he first bites, he counters hard and THAT is where he should get re-enforced by slipping the sleeve. Second, I would maybe talk to your helper about how much he is using that stick. It is moving and making noise and becoming too much of an attraction. I have seen dogs start to look for the stick and even try to bite it when helpers use it that much.
The thread about torquing or pulling ...here is an example of a torque. He does it immediately when he first bites, that is fight drive. Looks like at 2:48 the helper finally re-enforces the fight and then after that, when the dog shows lots of power doing it, he lets the dog know he is kicking his ass. That's all good, just that maybe when the dog hits back THAT hard, the helper should just let him have it vs asking for that worthless pulling behavior. All the power is in the fighting behavior, re-enforce it. The last part of the tape is not the best work IMO. The dog counters repeatedly when the stick is used but the helper just keeps waiting for the pulling and ignoring all the power in the dog. The grip is full and he is about taking his arm off but the helper hangs on and when the dog shows far LESS power there by kind of pulling, he slips it. Not my idea of how to build him up.

I like he is barking and looking the helper right in the eyes, That is a very strong dog. Re-enforce his strength don't over-power him by ignoring his power and asking for behaviors he is not offering naturally. When a dog torques like that he is trying to take control and it is up to the helper to teach him that he can . The out and control work will be better with a dog who feels in control and the best way to let the dog know he is, is to re-enforce the power he brings naturally.

People in SchH have lost their minds with this idea of pulling. It makes NO sense, especially with a dog like yours. You can re-enofrce pulling when the helper is turned away but it should not be re-enforced when the helper is facing and actively fighting with the dog. The pulling would be desirable on the escape to stop the helper.

Northern GSDs · 12-30-2011, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vandal

The thread about torquing or pulling ...here is an example of a torque. He does it immediately when he first bites, that is fight drive

Excellent example!

Catu, looks like a nice boy you have there

Jason L · 12-30-2011, 08:43 AM

What a nice dog, Catu!

gagsd · 12-30-2011, 10:43 AM

Thank you for posting!

Catu · 12-30-2011, 12:00 PM

Thanks for the coments and advices, I'll make sure to read it to my helper. I say the three of us are learning because he is used to work only with showline dogs and 90% of prey, but he is also a very open person to new things and always wanting to try new things (I actually met him on several seminars years before coming to live to the austral part of the country) and that is one of the things I most appreciate of him.

Checking Akela's pedigree he has Arek Stoffelblick (from the torquing thread) on his father side through Bandit van Gogh, so no surprise he likes to torque.

mareg · 01-02-2012, 09:51 AM

Since you asked. Table training is a broad term and can mean anything. There are people out there that have programs in place that work well. With this video I dont see a table training program in place. I see someone with a dog on a table trying to train it.

I would stop using the table in this way. I would not use it at all unless you have the chance to use it correctly with a program in place. What you are tyring to accomplish with grips can be accomplished easy enough on the ground.

Table work is a great tool if used properly, which in my humble opinion you are not doing.

Your dog is countering very nicely only to be ignored by the helper. With this type of table you are using the dog will generally never see the sleeve. If they do see a sleeve the helper isnt wearing it and the dog doesnt get a bite.

Looks like a nice dog! IF you can only train one time a month i would just teach him to bark and enjoy it as a pet/companion. Even with one time a week it is very difficult to do true protection work or at least "good" protection work. Trying to accomplish to much in one session could just damage a very nice dog.

GSDElsa · 01-02-2012, 10:22 AM

Can I ask why you are approaching "table" work in that manner? I've never seen it done that way.

gagsd · 01-02-2012, 10:25 AM

Justine, how do you see it done?

GSDElsa · 01-02-2012, 10:46 AM

My SchH club brings Gene England in 3-4 times a year.....so my experience with tables is how he uses them and sets them up. Now, we use "modified" tables (for a lack of a better term) to teach things like guarding...those are more patforms about 6 inches off the ground that are used for shaping various behaviors, to include guarding.

12-30-2011, 01:34 AM	#2 (permalink)
Vandal Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Saugus, CA Posts: 1,887	Well right off the bat I will say a couple of things. First, he is a very nice dog with lots of fight drive...of course... Second, when he first bites, he counters hard and THAT is where he should get re-enforced by slipping the sleeve. Second, I would maybe talk to your helper about how much he is using that stick. It is moving and making noise and becoming too much of an attraction. I have seen dogs start to look for the stick and even try to bite it when helpers use it that much. The thread about torquing or pulling ...here is an example of a torque. He does it immediately when he first bites, that is fight drive. Looks like at 2:48 the helper finally re-enforces the fight and then after that, when the dog shows lots of power doing it, he lets the dog know he is kicking his ass. That's all good, just that maybe when the dog hits back THAT hard, the helper should just let him have it vs asking for that worthless pulling behavior. All the power is in the fighting behavior, re-enforce it. The last part of the tape is not the best work IMO. The dog counters repeatedly when the stick is used but the helper just keeps waiting for the pulling and ignoring all the power in the dog. The grip is full and he is about taking his arm off but the helper hangs on and when the dog shows far LESS power there by kind of pulling, he slips it. Not my idea of how to build him up. I like he is barking and looking the helper right in the eyes, That is a very strong dog. Re-enforce his strength don't over-power him by ignoring his power and asking for behaviors he is not offering naturally. When a dog torques like that he is trying to take control and it is up to the helper to teach him that he can . The out and control work will be better with a dog who feels in control and the best way to let the dog know he is, is to re-enforce the power he brings naturally. People in SchH have lost their minds with this idea of pulling. It makes NO sense, especially with a dog like yours. You can re-enofrce pulling when the helper is turned away but it should not be re-enforced when the helper is facing and actively fighting with the dog. The pulling would be desirable on the escape to stop the helper. __________________ Anne www.adlerstein.com Last edited by Vandal; 12-30-2011 at 01:39 AM.

12-30-2011, 10:43 AM	#5 (permalink)
gagsd Knighted Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: georgia Posts: 2,972	Thank you for posting! __________________ Animals do not have rights. Owners have responsibilities. www.columbusworkingdogs.com

12-30-2011, 12:00 PM	#6 (permalink)
Catu Crowned Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Valdivia, Chile Posts: 4,276	Thanks for the coments and advices, I'll make sure to read it to my helper. I say the three of us are learning because he is used to work only with showline dogs and 90% of prey, but he is also a very open person to new things and always wanting to try new things (I actually met him on several seminars years before coming to live to the austral part of the country) and that is one of the things I most appreciate of him. Checking Akela's pedigree he has Arek Stoffelblick (from the torquing thread) on his father side through Bandit van Gogh, so no surprise he likes to torque. __________________ "The dog does not need to be deranked so much as the people need to learn to act like people worth listening to" Suzanne Clothier. Diabla, my Daemon; SchH A, RH-T A Akela, my Direwolf; Work in Progress Bagheera, Long term puppy host Last edited by Catu; 12-30-2011 at 12:02 PM.

01-02-2012, 10:22 AM	#8 (permalink)
GSDElsa Crowned Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Central, NY Posts: 3,706	Can I ask why you are approaching "table" work in that manner? I've never seen it done that way. __________________ Justine, mom to: - Elsa - BrightStar Rescue - "Da Pookins" - Medo Aritar Bastet - "The Beast From The East"

01-02-2012, 10:25 AM	#9 (permalink)
gagsd Knighted Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: georgia Posts: 2,972	Justine, how do you see it done? __________________ Animals do not have rights. Owners have responsibilities. www.columbusworkingdogs.com

12-30-2011, 08:43 AM	#4 (permalink)
Jason L Knighted Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 2,980	What a nice dog, Catu!

01-02-2012, 09:51 AM	#7 (permalink)
mareg Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 56	Since you asked. Table training is a broad term and can mean anything. There are people out there that have programs in place that work well. With this video I dont see a table training program in place. I see someone with a dog on a table trying to train it. I would stop using the table in this way. I would not use it at all unless you have the chance to use it correctly with a program in place. What you are tyring to accomplish with grips can be accomplished easy enough on the ground. Table work is a great tool if used properly, which in my humble opinion you are not doing. Your dog is countering very nicely only to be ignored by the helper. With this type of table you are using the dog will generally never see the sleeve. If they do see a sleeve the helper isnt wearing it and the dog doesnt get a bite. Looks like a nice dog! IF you can only train one time a month i would just teach him to bark and enjoy it as a pet/companion. Even with one time a week it is very difficult to do true protection work or at least "good" protection work. Trying to accomplish to much in one session could just damage a very nice dog.

01-02-2012, 10:46 AM	#10 (permalink)
GSDElsa Crowned Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Central, NY Posts: 3,706	My SchH club brings Gene England in 3-4 times a year.....so my experience with tables is how he uses them and sets them up. Now, we use "modified" tables (for a lack of a better term) to teach things like guarding...those are more patforms about 6 inches off the ground that are used for shaping various behaviors, to include guarding. __________________ Justine, mom to: - Elsa - BrightStar Rescue - "Da Pookins" - Medo Aritar Bastet - "The Beast From The East"

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