Change in performance from helper to helper

[hunterisgreat]

I've noticed some dogs, including my female, vary their performance from helper to helper and I'm trying to determine why. Of couse sometimes its just helper's experience level, but this past weekend a club member got in the blind for the first time ever (brand new to our club and schutzhund aswell) for one of our club president's retired dogs, and the dog's bark and hold was much better than with me (while I'm no seasoned helper, I am working towards being the clubs second helper under close mentorship)... perhaps because this guy is much larger than me? (I'm 5'8, about 140lbs with a light frame, he was maybe 5'10 or more, stocky and guessing around 200lbs). To throw another variable into the mix, he first got in the blind wearing sun glasses.

[ShenzisMom]

The best way I can put it is that some helpers look boring standing in the blind, while others have an intensity to them. This is only from watching from the sidelines... :P Make yourself look like a threat, and you will be treated like one.

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by Deathmetal

The best way I can put it is that some helpers look boring standing in the blind, while others have an intensity to them. This is only from watching from the sidelines... :P Make yourself look like a threat, and you will be treated like one.

I was posturing a little more to the dog than the other guy. The other guy honestly wouldn't know how to posture at the dog or put pressure on him.

[4TheDawgies]

Your confidence of understanding the process of bitework and having experience can appear boring

A new person has lack of confidence and adrenaline flowing through them. The dog smells this and feels the fight is more real or they can be pushier with this guy because the helper is weak

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by 4TheDawgies

Your confidence of understanding the process of bitework and having experience can appear boring

A new person has lack of confidence and adrenaline flowing through them. The dog smells this and feels the fight is more real or they can be pushier with this guy because the helper is weak

That might be it. I remember the first time I got in the blind for a dog, he just got dirty every time when he doesn't usually get dirty with our regular helper. I wasn't really scared of the dog so much (was around the dog a bunch already, just not as the helper), but really nervous trying to make sure I was going to do what I was supposed to, reward when I was supposed to, etc etc.

Its funny... its sort of like learning to water ski. The first time you do it and fall you forget to let go and get dragged underwater lol. First time I was in the blind, I forget to slip the sleeve lol

[Liesje]

I think it depends on a lot of things. My husband tried helperwork once, I knew he wouldn't really get into it but some people in the club wanted him to try. He's 6'4" and 250lbs, very fit and athletic (he plays a ton of sports). We sent a well trained, retired, SchH3 dog in the blind and the dog just pushed my DH around.

I think there always needs to be "reading" the dog and responding correctly. Yes sometimes seasoned helpers, or "trial helpers", or the same helper that always works the dog and isn't thinking outside the box just becomes boring to the dog. But a new helper isn't always more exciting and producing better work. In my DH's case, the dog knew the helper didn't know what he was doing and he let the helper know. So I don't necessarily believe that a new or weak helper is going to bring more fight from the dog. I think the most fight is going to come from a helper that just understands how to read that dog and bring the fight out in a way that draws power and confidence from the dog, regardless of whether the helper is 300 or 150lbs.

[Uniballer]

But wait, there's more...

Helpers are human. Even experienced helpers do not read dogs in exactly the same way, and may emphasize different aspects of what they see in the dog. Nor are all helpers equally good at certain things. And how much is the helper threatening the dog vs. challenging the dog vs. playing with the dog? I sometimes talk about the "new helper" effect, where working on a helper the dog doesn't know seems to refresh the dog's work. Some helpers never seem to get boring for certain dogs. Other helpers have a hard time adjusting their presence to fit what is needed on a given dog at a given time (either too much or too little presence).

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by Liesje

I think it depends on a lot of things. My husband tried helperwork once, I knew he wouldn't really get into it but some people in the club wanted him to try. He's 6'4" and 250lbs, very fit and athletic (he plays a ton of sports). We sent a well trained, retired, SchH3 dog in the blind and the dog just pushed my DH around.

I think there always needs to be "reading" the dog and responding correctly. Yes sometimes seasoned helpers, or "trial helpers", or the same helper that always works the dog and isn't thinking outside the box just becomes boring to the dog. But a new helper isn't always more exciting and producing better work. In my DH's case, the dog knew the helper didn't know what he was doing and he let the helper know. So I don't necessarily believe that a new or weak helper is going to bring more fight from the dog. I think the most fight is going to come from a helper that just understands how to read that dog and bring the fight out in a way that draws power and confidence from the dog, regardless of whether the helper is 300 or 150lbs.

Agreed, and I didn't expect a single answer anyway.. I know ideally, I should have been able to draw it out of this dog, but I guess thats what I'm wondering.. what did I miss?

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by Uniballer

But wait, there's more...

Helpers are human. Even experienced helpers do not read dogs in exactly the same way, and may emphasize different aspects of what they see in the dog. Nor are all helpers equally good at certain things. And how much is the helper threatening the dog vs. challenging the dog vs. playing with the dog? I sometimes talk about the "new helper" effect, where working on a helper the dog doesn't know seems to refresh the dog's work. Some helpers never seem to get boring for certain dogs. Other helpers have a hard time adjusting their presence to fit what is needed on a given dog at a given time (either too much or too little presence).

That what I was wondering, if perhaps I was having too much, or too little presence, as I was trying to give a little b/c he more interested than the handled expected him to be at first (hadn't been out a while, believe he is 9, but schh1). But the bark and hold was just not nearly as good for me as it was for the other guy. I'm getting a good bit better at reading a dog while working with them and adjusting the pressure as appropriate, but I'm still real green

[wolfstraum]

Dogs can "read" helpers just like helpers read dogs....I was at a DVG club many years ago...there were 2 dogs there, one a rottie, the other a GSD....BOTH dogs actually lifted their legs and relieved themselves on a helper (same guy)...not a small guy, did karate, but just no presence...I have a female who I swear would do the same to certain helpers...I can work her on Dean Calderon or Marcus Hampton (as an example) and a few other experienced guys and she shows terrifically...very very strong...on other helpers, her mind wanders looking for someone more interesting?, or she will just ignore them completely, and she will play the game with helpers she knows and likes.. but basically, it is presence, pure and simple....some dogs will bark at a monkey with a sleeve on and others react when the helper IS a threat.

Lee