Bitework and Proper Engagement

wildo · 07-01-2011, 04:43 PM

I'm not going to start doing Schutzhund with my dog, but we do tug a lot. She keeps the tug at the front of her mouth, and that can't be good on her canines. I'd like to teach her "proper" engagement (engagement is the correct word, right?) so that the tug is at the back of her mouth.

I did a search in this sub forum, but oddly I couldn't find any threads that really laid out a process for this. Do you just ask them to tug, but only tug back if it is in the back of their mouth? There must be a real process to train this...

wildo · 07-01-2011, 04:48 PM

Maybe it would help if I got a bite pillow- such that the tug itself is wider than her mouth? Our current tug is only about 2" in diameter, so it doesn't fill her mouth. Maybe I should get one like this?

YouTube - ‪German Shepherd's First Day on the Bite Pillow‬&rlm;

onyx'girl · 07-01-2011, 05:08 PM

If you hold the tug, she should "counter" and that will place the tug deeper into the mouth. At that point, then you engage the dog in tug.
Some dogs won't bite deep, and out of habit(because they've been rewarded with it) will hold the tug towards the front of the mouth.
I wouldn't get a bite pillow, but maybe a two handle synthetic tug will be easier? Synthetic Tug 12"-Elite K-9

Rerun · 07-01-2011, 05:52 PM

I have that black tug linked above from LB's site, but I have the smaller puppy sized one because I use it for OB. It only has one handle and works fine, but for a larger dog (I use it with my mal, who is on the smaller side) I would definitely want a bigger tug because when he's really amped up I've gotten some finger nips here and there. I do like the smaller one for my purposes though, because I loop it over my wrist and can easily hold the end that way and tug the other so it's easy to transition back and forth from tug to OB.

BTW it is REALLY durable!

Freestep · 07-01-2011, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildo

Do you just ask them to tug, but only tug back if it is in the back of their mouth? There must be a real process to train this...

This is how it was explained to me: you "train" the pup to bite with the molars by releasing the tug when she gets it all the way back in her mouth. So she "wins" the tug when she bites deep. Once she's figured that out, then you can challenge her by more tugging.

**Castlemaid** · 07-01-2011, 06:20 PM

Yes, you are right, you can teach a dog to bite the pillow or tug properly. Start with a bite pillow, or a bigger tug, 12 inches or longer, or a tug with handles so you can hold on to both ends at the same time while you tug with your dog. I prefer a bigger tug that I can hold the tug itself, as opposed to the handles. For teaching proper bites, a little bit stiffer tug, like a pillow will work better.

When the dog does not bite properly (i.e. with only the front canines), you don't engage her. Freeze, lock your arms, and stop tugging. She will want to get the tug from you and may try to get a better grip on the tug by re-adjusting with a fuller bite to get a better grip. The INSTANT she re-adjust with a deeper, fuller grip, let her win with a big show of GOOD GIRL!

Let her have the tug for a few seconds than grab hold of it again without asking her to out and continue to tug a bit more to keep the game going and let her win.

At first, a small readjustment can be a winning readjustment, but then keep waiting her out with locked arms and no movement until she does readjust. At first, it may be a longer wait, but it will get shorter and shorter.

Also, tease her a lot with the tug at first, just keeping it out of reach and making her miss to build her drive. With a higher drive and a stronger desire to get that tug, the more likely she is to bite deep. If she does, she wins!

Here are some good examples of good tugs to use to teach this:

From:Schutzhund equipment, Police k9 equipment supplier , dog equipment, dog harness

ShenzisMom · 07-01-2011, 06:36 PM

Thanks for the great information in this thread.
Sorry, don't have anything to offer

Northern GSDs · 07-02-2011, 12:21 AM

Try a search on YouTube for "Bite Development Ellis". That should provide quite a few links that will help to provide a visual for setting/readjusting the bite etc.

Sometimes it also helps to begin again with a decent sized rag (you can also put it on a flirt pole).

As an example, this one has some tidbits that might be useful:

YouTube - ‪Puppy Bite Work 8 Weeks To Adulthood‬&rlm;

wildo · 07-02-2011, 07:54 AM

Sorry for the delayed response everyone. We had a keg at work that needed to be floated- so I was in no shape yesterday afternoon or evening to be on here!

Seems like a lot of great advice! Northern GSDs- that Ellis video was fantastic! I could spot some of the subtleties- probably not all of them, but some. It seemed when Rush didn't get a full bit, Ellis kinda pushed the pad or whatever further into his mouth before continuing. That seems like it could work. And the distraction stuff- like having to walk on those plastic bottles to get to tug was so cool!

Castlemaid- this also sounds like a great method:

Quote:

When the dog does not bite properly (i.e. with only the front canines), you don't engage her. Freeze, lock your arms, and stop tugging. She will want to get the tug from you and may try to get a better grip on the tug by re-adjusting with a fuller bite to get a better grip. The INSTANT she re-adjust with a deeper, fuller grip, let her win with a big show of GOOD GIRL

Jason L · 07-02-2011, 07:55 AM

Another Mike Ellis video on tugging:

YouTube - ‪Michael Ellis: Teaching the dog to "clamp down" when tugging‬&rlm;

I wouldn't worry too much about having a "full bite" if the dog is really tugging with you. And the secret to getting the dog to tug with you is you have to know how to play tug yourself. Watch Lindsey in the video. She is really good at it and her movement is very smooth. Watch how she keeps the tug alive and moving EVEN after the dog has it in her mouth. It's the play/competition against the handler and the prey-ish movement of the tug (side to side movement; small pulsing of the tug) that will make the dog want to clamp down, bite harder, bite deeper. I see a lot people play tug by standing straight in front of a dog and statically pull away against the dog ... the only thing that does is put the dog in defense (even when just playing) and you're never get a full bite doing that.

07-01-2011, 04:43 PM	#1 (permalink)
wildo Knighted Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 3,230	Bitework and Proper Engagement I'm not going to start doing Schutzhund with my dog, but we do tug a lot. She keeps the tug at the front of her mouth, and that can't be good on her canines. I'd like to teach her "proper" engagement (engagement is the correct word, right?) so that the tug is at the back of her mouth. I did a search in this sub forum, but oddly I couldn't find any threads that really laid out a process for this. Do you just ask them to tug, but only tug back if it is in the back of their mouth? There must be a real process to train this... __________________ Willy Pimg - DOB: 2/06, CL1-R, CL1-S, CL1-F, CGC

07-01-2011, 05:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
onyx'girl Crowned Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: SW, MI Posts: 17,611	If you hold the tug, she should "counter" and that will place the tug deeper into the mouth. At that point, then you engage the dog in tug. Some dogs won't bite deep, and out of habit(because they've been rewarded with it) will hold the tug towards the front of the mouth. I wouldn't get a bite pillow, but maybe a two handle synthetic tug will be easier? Synthetic Tug 12"-Elite K-9 __________________ Jane~ Kept by Onyx, Kacie and Gideon v Wildhaus aka Karlo

07-01-2011, 06:20 PM	#6 (permalink)
Castlemaid Moderator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Northern British Columbia Posts: 9,089	Yes, you are right, you can teach a dog to bite the pillow or tug properly. Start with a bite pillow, or a bigger tug, 12 inches or longer, or a tug with handles so you can hold on to both ends at the same time while you tug with your dog. I prefer a bigger tug that I can hold the tug itself, as opposed to the handles. For teaching proper bites, a little bit stiffer tug, like a pillow will work better. When the dog does not bite properly (i.e. with only the front canines), you don't engage her. Freeze, lock your arms, and stop tugging. She will want to get the tug from you and may try to get a better grip on the tug by re-adjusting with a fuller bite to get a better grip. The INSTANT she re-adjust with a deeper, fuller grip, let her win with a big show of GOOD GIRL! Let her have the tug for a few seconds than grab hold of it again without asking her to out and continue to tug a bit more to keep the game going and let her win. At first, a small readjustment can be a winning readjustment, but then keep waiting her out with locked arms and no movement until she does readjust. At first, it may be a longer wait, but it will get shorter and shorter. Also, tease her a lot with the tug at first, just keeping it out of reach and making her miss to build her drive. With a higher drive and a stronger desire to get that tug, the more likely she is to bite deep. If she does, she wins! Here are some good examples of good tugs to use to teach this: From:Schutzhund equipment, Police k9 equipment supplier , dog equipment, dog harness __________________ Lucia Keeta BH, OB1, TR1, AD (HOT) Rottweiler/Hairy Dog mix?? Shelter rescue Gryffon Vom Wildhaus BH, OFA Good (HOT) "Bites Through the Sleeve" Cuddlebug, b: Mar 2009

07-01-2011, 05:52 PM	#4 (permalink)
Rerun Crowned Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 5,608	I have that black tug linked above from LB's site, but I have the smaller puppy sized one because I use it for OB. It only has one handle and works fine, but for a larger dog (I use it with my mal, who is on the smaller side) I would definitely want a bigger tug because when he's really amped up I've gotten some finger nips here and there. I do like the smaller one for my purposes though, because I loop it over my wrist and can easily hold the end that way and tug the other so it's easy to transition back and forth from tug to OB. BTW it is REALLY durable!

07-01-2011, 06:36 PM	#7 (permalink)
ShenzisMom Master Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Brampton, ON Posts: 839	Thanks for the great information in this thread. Sorry, don't have anything to offer

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