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Rescues: can a retired PPD be placed in a pet home?

15K views 95 replies 31 participants last post by  Debanneball 
#1 · (Edited)
Our rescue is being asked to pull a lovely, supposedly well-bred senior working line F that once was a personal protection dog. She's apparently had a lovely disposition in the shelter, but she dies Friday without a rescue commitment.

We generally avoid taking dogs with bite training as 99% of our adoptions are to pet homes that just want a family dog. The local IPO community does not support or adopt from rescues -- so we do not expect any support from them for a dog like this. I'm thus not sure what to do with her, were we to pull her.

From what I've cobbled together third and fourth hand, her story is that when she was done breeding, her breeder sold her to a retirement home intact (which possibly continued to breed her anyway?)...with a contract to return her if it didn't work out. Two years later, she was instead dumped at a shelter. The shelter won't release her without spaying, and once the breeder found out and contacted the shelter, the breeder declined take her back if the shelter spays her. The shelter won't release with out spaying and wants us to pull her. We need another senior dog like a hole in the head -- but she's been bred and bred, and then dumped, which always makes my heart ache.

The problem is the bite training. It's not our world -- and the liability associated with putting a bite-trained dog in the hands of a pet dog owner scares the stuffing out of me. We know we can't find adopters from that world locally, as they've given us a very cold shoulder in the past.

So what do you do with a dog like this in rescue? :confused: I know nothing whatsoever about the training a PPD has had, so I'm very curious as to what the options are for a dog like this. Any creative suggestions welcomed, as the shelter director is a friend, and the shelter's in a rural area far, far off the beaten path.
 
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#2 ·
Shame on the breeder for KNOWING the dog is in the shelter, but refusing to take her unless she's not spayed. Perhaps if she has a good, solid temperament, then she can be fostered by someone experienced until a permanent solution is found.
 
#4 · (Edited)
She's in a rural shelter, far, far from any major city, in South Louisiana. Oh---and she's HW(+), but aren't they all down here. She's tagged as "rescue only."

There's no PPD-experienced foster. There are "dog-experienced" fosters, who are themselves pet dog owners. And there's a needle. Those are pretty much the options right now.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Let the dog avoid death... Don't spay it give it to the breeder.... Would you rather see a dog die than break one rule?

I am more disappointed every day with people involved in shelters.

Poor dogs must suffer... Because of your politics.

The breeder probably had first option to take dog back... But other party was stupid, embarrassed and wanted to save face....

It is the breeders right to have that dog intact and as it was...
 
#17 ·
The breeder doesn't want the dog. How is your solution the best? If it goes back to the breeder spayed, they will probably put it down. The shelter has rules to protect overpopulation.

They should pull the dog, have it spayed, treat the heartworm and look for an appropriate home. If it hasn't bit anyone in the shelter, it's not a nutter.

Your opinion that the shelter should break it's rules is invalid. Why would they send a dog back to a puppy mill unaltered?
 
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#7 · (Edited)
Lykoz, I'll pre-empt this by saying:
(1) I'm not asking your opinion of the shelter.
(2) I don't run the shelter.
(3) The rescue I work with (a non-profit, foster-based charity) is the dog's only possible source to safety right now, because the shelter has her tagged "rescue only," and if our rescue doesn't to and pull her from the government shelter, she likely dies.

You are *welcome* to think I'm stupid, lazy, and worthless if that floats your boat because I have to work with shelter staff -- but I don't make the rules. I have no influence on them making the spay/neuter decisions. I'm honestly not interested in your political criticism of the GOVERNMENT-RUN shelter that is acting pursuant to STATE LAW regarding spay/neuter of stray dogs found in MY STATE. Please go troll another thread if you want to start that same old argument about rescues and shelters and spay/neuter laws. Just keep it off my thread, please, which is about whether this dog can be safely placed, given our constraints. I *have* to follow state law in working with the shelter. There's no arguing about it.

I'm looking for people with solutions as this dog has a ticking clock, not political agendas.
 
#9 ·
Do you have an experienced trainer that can evaluate the dog for temperament? All dogs can bite. Good bitework training simply instills rules to how and when the dog is allowed to bite. No need to be automatically fearful of a dog that is PPD trained.

No need to assume that the dog is safe either. It needs to be evaluated by a professional. Sarah Kalnajs has a DVD "Am I Safe" that is a good resource for temperament testing for fosters.

Management and controlled interaction can keep you and the dog safe if you decide to pull her. I would advise the same when fostering any dog until you have a good idea of what you have.
 
#10 ·
Thanks, David. I'll look for that DVD. I have local pet dog trainers, but not IPO or PPD trainers. If she were local to me, I might be able to get a K9 officer to look at her. Our problem is that she's so far away, getting any resources to visit her way out in the swamp is a really big challenge.

We do routine temp testing of shelter dogs pretty regularly, looking for any triggers of aggression (playing, taking toys, etc.), looking for prey-drive toward other pets and kids, willingness to be handled, responsiveness to mild correction, reaction to food, and the like. We can evaluate "a dog" with some confidence -- as we do it all the time when we visit shelters. I'm just not sure how the training she's had changes the evaluation (or if it does?).

The shelter director who has her used to be the head behaviorist in a large city shelter I work with a lot, and while not a professional trainer, when this person tells me a dog has a good disposition it counts for a lot more than when I hear that from most shelter staff, as I know she's putting the dog through something like the ASPCA's S.A.F.E.R. test (which has many weaknesses as a temp test, but at least tends to reveal the dangerous fear-biter dogs).

So far, they've haven't seen an iota of ill-will from her toward anybody. She's been nothing but sweet with volunteers and staff.

Can these dogs ever get confused in the wrong hands and direct their bite training on a wrong target accidentally, or is that something training should make impossible? Put differently, if she never hears her protection training commands again, do they just fade away, like a dog forgetting "sit" and "down"?
 
#26 ·
Sent you a PM with the info. She needs a rescue at this point, not an adopter since she's marked "rescue only." A good adopter who works with a legitimate rescue may turn into a foster-to-adopt situation though. (The shelter will ask any rescue for 501(c)(3) paperwork and a rescue vet ref.)
 
#12 ·
Everything your dog does is in context to the situation. If you are having a conversation with a friend with your dog present and you say, " I need to sit on the chair down there because I have had to stand all day and my heel is sore." Will your dog be running through positions?

If a guy in a puffy coat comes running, screaming at the dog, it may react. If someone starts wrestling with you, it may react. It depends on her training. Fama, my retired MWD, reacted to an employee at home depot that was wearing an apron, carrying a piece of lumber towards us. I'm sure it looked to her like a man dressed in traditional middle eastern clothing that posed a threat. I outed her and had her go say hi to him. I'm now working on counter conditioning this behavior.

There may be things like this that come up. There may not.

Remember, she's a dog, like all the dogs you rescue. Treat her like a dog. Don't assume anything. Just pay attention and be ready to handle whatever situation comes up, just like with any dog.
 
#13 ·
I'm thinking - but without the knowledge that he has - what David is thinking! My other thought is that there is a chance we have all pulled and fostered dogs with either actual PPD training and had no idea of it, and that worse, we have fostered dogs that have been half-buttedly put through Schutzhund or PPD training and we get stuck undoing some of the stupidity that their owners inflicted on them (note - I am not saying either type of training is stupid, just there are people out there training dogs who should not be and the dogs end up with some weird behaviors).

What I am wondering - pull her if you can/have room - it sounds like that rescue is the only chance, bring her in, have her evaled by people that will then be close to her, and keep her under eval during her HW treatment, and add a few months at the end (since it tires them and want to see who she is going to be so you need extra months after the end to do that), eval her again, and see if, in all that time, you can get in touch with people who trained with her for more info.

As far as the potential adopter pool and liability, I hope you can find a workaround addendum to your contract and maybe network within other sub-communities of dog savvy people that may offer a solid home for her.

Good luck, I hope you can help her. It is not easy because it's like accepting a dog into a program with a known bite - the issue with that is that those are always out of control, whereas with her, she has no known out of control bite history (and no known actual bite history - people have guns they never shoot in defense, and PPD that never bite other than in training, right?).
 
#14 ·
My solution is the simplest... Most logical... And will end with the dog not being put down... (You would THINK that is what everyone wants).

Firstly I am not so much hypocritical of your rescue efforts... It is the shelter that wont release the dog that is disappointing.

Tell your 'friend' at the shelter how it is...

The previous breeder seems to have had a contract that allows him to take back the dog intact as first option should have anything like this happen...

The second breeder acted negligently leading to this situation. That dog SHOULD have NEVER even ENTERED the SHELTER... IT is Red Tape, and administrative bull-****... Pretend it never happened...

the first breeder likely has a legal right to own that dog intact it seems...

He would never take a shelter to court because it would severely impact his public image.. (If you have not already hurt it)...

Just let it go... I am sorry but all the shelters meddling in this is only doing harm to the dog...

"If you could kill a single child, to create Utopia on earth.. Would you kill the child?"
Dont answer.. The question wont make sense to you.. It is rhetorical..

Nothing good can ever come from a single bad deed, in creating a 'perfect world'...
 
#15 ·
Correct me if I am wrong, but your advice is to 'let the dog die?'.. Its not the dog's fault it ended up in the shelter, nor is it the breeders..
 
#16 ·
First, the shelter is probably what is more commonly referred to as “the pound.” So they have rules because they are a government organization. The rule about not releasing intact animals, is a pretty **** good one considering they’re in the business of controlling the pet population and releasing intact animals is kind of going against that.

Second, there is probably bad blood between the breeder and the second owner, which is why the second owner didn’t just send the dog back to the breeder. Or, possibly just too lazy to drive the dog another hour or two to the original breeder.

Third, the original breeder is the one that’s in the wrong. If they truly do know about the dog, but won’t take it unless it’s intact, they’re the ones being selfish and unreasonable and uncaring. This person is basically saying, a spayed female is worthless to me (most likely because they’d like to breed to make more puppies) and a waste of money so that breeder is basically saying that they’d probably end up putting the dog down.

The whole thing with bitework is iffy. I’ve seen so many dogs taught the wrong way that I’d be very cautious about placing this type of dog in a home. You’ll never know what kind of training it got, and you won’t ever know what kind of temperament the dog has until it gets comfortable and is able to be itself again. It’s probably a good sign that the dog hasn’t bitten any of the shelter staff yet, as that is a high stress environment and if the dog did have issues, that would definitely be a situation where you’d see the training possibly come out and the dog bite someone. But it hasn’t, so that does say something about the dog.

If I were you, start contacting working line breeders in the area. Just see if they’ve had people looking for older dogs. I know that “serious” IPO people won’t want an older dog with a questionable foundation, but someone that just likes working lines, and wants an older dog, might be more than willing to get this dog. There are a lot of people that dabble in Schutzhund or other bite sport and wouldn’t mind having fun with an older dog. Also, not quite sure how old she is, so if she’s still in working condition/age, that’s always a plus. You might get a hit and be able to pull the dog, evaluate, and know there is already a possible adopter.
 
#19 ·
If I were you, start contacting working line breeders in the area. Just see if they’ve had people looking for older dogs. I know that “serious” IPO people won’t want an older dog with a questionable foundation, but someone that just likes working lines, and wants an older dog, might be more than willing to get this dog. There are a lot of people that dabble in Schutzhund or other bite sport and wouldn’t mind having fun with an older dog. Also, not quite sure how old she is, so if she’s still in working condition/age, that’s always a plus. You might get a hit and be able to pull the dog, evaluate, and know there is already a possible adopter.
Any dog can bite. Lots of people dabble in bitework and never follow through. They will say the dog is PPD trained, but it's never really been past tug and sleeve games. I never assume anything when evaluating a dog. People lie to pump themselves up.

I support the idea of looking for someone interested in IPO. An older dog can be fun and forgiving.
 
#18 ·
The dog is a senior, HW+ and the shelter wants to spay her? :eek: When? after she's adopted or rescued and goes thru treatment?

I would hope she wouldn't be used for breeding. Would make sense to appeal to the shelter on those grounds and have returned to breeder #1 to at least foster and find her a home. I mean if the breeder is ethical he/she wouldn't breed a HW+ Dog, nor a senior
 
#20 ·
I would take a chance on the dog. There are so many positives about her. Get her into rescue, fostered with one of the "great with dogs fosters". I think they will be able to handle her fine. In that time, the rescue can have her evaluated by a K-9 officer or someone with experience with this type of dog.

There are older people, perhaps a retired officer, who would be a perfect match for her.
 
#22 ·
Even if she has been trained in protection, it is usually not a detriment. Unless the training was crap. Protection training is based in obedience.
 
#30 · (Edited)
How do we figure out if it's crap? Let's assume I can't find her trainer (not certain yet, but go off the assumption). Tell me about the red flags you would look for in a dog who's training is unknown that might give away "crap" training -- that will help here!

David's right--she's not a nutter. I know how this shelter director does temp testing. We can assume she's done something like ASPCA's SAFER protocol (which is probably unfairly over-inclusive, if anything, in the dogs it identifies as potentially aggressive), and no signs of aggression came up. Assume everything so far points to a very stable temperament.

What would "crap" training do in a dog with a stable temperament, and how do you recognize it?
 
#23 ·
I would try, as much as possible, to treat this like any other owner surrender.
Try and get a reliable assessment and be extra vigilant about where she ends up.
This isn't a dog with a bite history, this is a dog with (possible) PPD training.
If she has an otherwise good temperament and passes the other aspects of the assessment, I would have no problem pulling her.
Like almost all rescue dogs, the biggest "problem" would be matching her to a home that will give her what she needs, like continued training and simulation.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Legally speaking the first breeder has a clear contract apparently that he gets 'first' choice should the dog be rehomed for any reason...

So the shelter has been put in as an intermediary probably illegally... By the second owner... How can you make decisions, about a dog that should never have been presented to you in the first place.. (The fact that first breeder had a first choice in rehoming policy and bad blood with the second breeder, paints a much better picture of the first breeder... i.e. he was unhappy with how the second breeder was treating the dog...)

(The shelter did not find anything wrong with first breeder... They were willing to give the dog to him if it was neutered... So this is a neutering issue... Not an issue with the breeder per say)

Lets get past the legislative aspect... And pretend that this contract does not exist...

Fine place the dog... Figure out another solution...

Just please don't let the dog be put down because of this red tape...
Its just not fair...

I think there are too many dogs that need placement to be so hypocritical on a dog that has already found a home, just because you have an agenda against breeding dogs...
If you think the first breeder is a "puppy mill" and abusing his dogs.... Which is not the picture I am getting... Then work to confiscate all his dogs... Not just stop one dog from going back to him... Which he is willing to help... (I dont see why he necessarily 'needs' that dog placed back with him)..

This is not a clear cut case of somebody abandoning a dog... And now it belongs to the shelter... And its future is in their hands...

This is a dog that contractual law should have gone back (As an option) straight to the first breeder...

It's a pity the second breeder was such a scumbag, and just threw it into the shelter.
 
#29 ·
The breeder refused the dog. It's fairly simple. The contract is void if the breeder doesn't want the dog.
 
#32 ·
Lykoz, please stop. The situation is what it is. The government has the power here, whether you agree or not. Please accept that there is a legal framework that the shelter is operating under that may be different from what you know or agree with. You are WELCOME to fly to Louisiana to address our state legislature to tell them you don't like our laws. Just keep it off this dog's thread.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Are you the legal expert of Louisiana that I was hoping would chime in?

How can you be so sure that you are correct?

The contract law was clear... If owner no longer wants the dog... The 1st breeder gets first choice...

That did not happen... the Shelter got 'first choice'...

There is a breach of contract..

If you want to ignore my posts, that is ok.. There are other posters giving you the help you 'want'...
In fact for the dogs sake.. I hope they are able to help you save the dog somehow, irrelevant of what the law does or does not say..

But I cant leave these things unsaid.
 
#34 ·
IMO crap training would show if you try to walk up to the dog a little suspiciously and see it react with barking/lunging. So basically try to stand up to the dog and see how it responds. Don’t corner the dog (most dogs will react by fighting in that situation) but maybe have it on leash, in an open area and see what it wants to do (fight the man/run from the man/be neutral like it’s never been in that situation). It’s weird, but due to the information you have, you might have to push the dog to see where it’s “threshold” is. I think a lot of the testing you probably do to regular dogs will work, it’s just that you’ll have to come up with additional scenarios which you might expect this dog to be in and see how it might react to them.

Basically you’d like to assess what the dog considers a threat. Either genetically, or what has been taught to the dog. The best thing to do would be to have a sleeve as the dog would react to that signal if it’s seen it before. You can also see if it’s a positive reaction (more prey/play) or if it is a bit more of a reserved or aggressive reaction.
 
#36 ·
A dog in the state of Louisiana is considered property..

Louisianna Contract law: Rights of first Refusal of Immovable object law: (Best I could find on Louisiana:
Source: http://digitalcommons.law.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5047&context=lalrev

"Thus, initially neither party is really obligated to do anything, but rather the owner has a negative duty-that is, he may not sell the property without first offering it to the holder. The holder has no vested rights until the property is offered to him; until then the right is merely contingent. However, the complexion of the contract changes when the owner decides to sell the property and offers it to the holder. At this point the contract resembles an option. Once the offer is made, "the holder of the pre- emption does have the sole option to purchase and can compel the owner to convey or reconvey by an action for specific performance."

Law expert forum: Pertaining to dogs: Right of first refusal:

Dog Contract - Right of First Refusal

Quoting jk
View Post
"sliightly ambiguous but my take on it is:

however you intend on disposing of the animal, the breeder gets first shot at placing themselves in the contract you are cosndidering.

in other words, if you are giving the dog away, breeder gets first opportunity to take it. If you are selling it, breeder gets first opportunity to buy it.

It does not allow the breeder to take the dog back with no money exchange if you are selling the dog."

Reply: "Agreed..."
 
#40 ·
If you can't understand that the contract has no legal bearing on the shelter, you shouldn't continue with this conversation. It's beyond your comprehension.
 
#42 · (Edited)
You are unfortunately the one that does not understand basic basic contract law.

If you have a point to make.. Or a justified response. Make it.

Please don't engage in personal attacks.

Thank you.

The shelter could easily find justifiable legal grounds to make an exception and let this dog live.
 
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