German Shepherds Forum banner

5 mo GSD defiance

4K views 18 replies 11 participants last post by  Dugie 
#1 ·
Hi Guys!
I am a newcomer to the forum and have been reading posts almost daily. First, let me say this is a great forum! Wonderful information and because of that, I haven't had the need to post...until now. :smile2:
Nothing major but I need some opinions on dealing with the defiance that comes with this age. Roux is great and has a wonderful personality. He's smart and I'm all scarred up from his drive! I am unsure what to do when he defies a command (I know it's normal for his age but I want to respond appropriately). He knows basic commands sit, stay, lay, kennel, here, his name, heels but not perfectly yet and working on place. He fetches and we are working on drop it. Working on off for jumping. Here's a couple of examples:
1) Here Roux - looks at me like I've lost my mind. Here Roux (I swear he grins at me) I take a step towards him, he runs, I stop. I tell him sit. He does it. I take a step towards him, he runs, I stop. I tell him sit, lay. He obeys or looks at me then runs again when I take a step. I don't know how to end this scenario...Usually I just keep getting him to sit until I can get close and grab his collar to reinforce. Sometimes I have a treat in reach and coax him to me with that and then go through all basic commands with treats for about 15 minutes then I release him out to exercise.


2) Roux jumps on chair and looks at me. I tell him off. He looks at me. I walk over grab his collar (while he bites me) and pull him off the chair while saying off. He looks at me and jumps back on the chair. I grab his collar again (while he bites me) pull him off the chair while saying off, while holding his collar and telling him to sit, he falls over on his side and looks at me like "what you got now". I release his collar, step back and call here. He will usually come to me and then I praise his "here" and then find a toy to play and distract from the chair.


I have a trainer who helps but she has not given me a real clear answer as to the correctness of the steps I am taking and/or what to do when he is in "run from me mode". Any advice is appreciated! :)
 
See less See more
#8 ·
We're up at 5am on weekdays and exercise fetch, run/work on commands for an hour. He crates when I leave for work at 7am. My daughter gets him out at 11am and works with him on commands and then usually a trip to the park for a walk/back in crate around 1:30 or 2 until my husband gets home at 4pm. Out in the backyard with hubby until I come home at 5:30. We play and then work on commands. We work on commands with all meals and we will stop and work on commands when we play. I try and work it in different ways/times.
 
#3 ·
Welcome!!!

First, never give the Come command if you can't enforce it. So have him on a long line so he can't skedaddle away. Second, Cone should be the most fun EVER!! At his age, you should be super exciting and hyped up everytime he comes to you, give him treats and toys and play. By making him do commands, Come becomes a chore.

The couch thing, I would have a line on him as well. Stop grabbing his collar as that can turn into an issue. If he has a line on, tell him "off" and use the line to pull him off. Then praise him. If he gets back on, rinse repeat. This will take some learning by attrition, but you don't want it to become combative.
 
#15 · (Edited)
First, never give the Come command if you can't enforce it. So have him on a long line so he can't skedaddle away. Second, Come should be the most fun EVER!! At his age, you should be super exciting and hyped up everytime he comes to you, give him treats and toys and play. By making him do commands, Come becomes a chore.

The couch thing, I would have a line on him as well. Stop grabbing his collar as that can turn into an issue. If he has a line on, tell him "off" and use the line to pull him off. Then praise him. If he gets back on, rinse repeat. This will take some learning by attrition, but you don't want it to become combative.
Yes! What can be very helpful at this age is to train default behaviors. That's something your dog does by default, without being asked to do it. You do this by "capturing" what your dog offers spontaneously - marking and rewarding them when he lays down, moves towards you, gives you eye contact, etc. If you tell him to do something and he doesn't do it, he's just learned he can blow you off. But if he looks at you and you say "Yes!" in a happy tone of voice (or use a clicker) and offer a tasty treat, he's going to start looking at you more and more because he's being reinforced by the behavior. Same thing with moving towards you - mark it and quickly move backwards a few steps so he has to come to you to get the reward. Also, movement is going to be more interesting to him than if you just stand there so make him chase the treat a little.

Think of this as foundation training, you're not teaching an actual command, it's more about building a relationship. By the time Keefer and Halo were that age they'd lay on the floor for hours, staring at me, hoping I'd toss a treat.

When you call your dog, don't go towards him, go away from him as this will encourage him to come towards you. Agree with the long line 100%.

What's his favorite toy? Have that hidden in your back pocket and whip it out the first step your dog takes toward you.
:thumbup: Sometimes toys work better than food, sometimes using both is best. And I totally agree with moving away from him when you call him. You have to stop chasing him and show him that chasing YOU is the best game ever. Since you have a yard and several people handy, you can play games that will help his recall. Restrained recalls are great for this. If there's a toy he loves or a super yummy treat (freeze dried liver, cheese, etc.), have one person restrain him while you tease him with what you have, then you run away from him, calling him to you. The other person lets go, and he should charge straight to you for his reward. You can start with short distances at first, even on a long line until he understands the game.

A game I like to play in the house with a new puppy is to drop a treat on the floor and then run away. Puppy gets treat and then chases me to get another treat. Drop a treat and run again, rinse repeat. I train a "whiplash" turn by rolling a treat a short distance across the floor, and when the dog gets to it I call the name and mark (verbally or with a clicker) the exact second the head starts to whip around towards me. Dog comes running back, gets a treat, then I toss another across the floor. I want to be able to say my dogs' names and have that head immediately whip around every time. I'm not using my recall command though, I'm just saying the dog's name.

I think it's best to not add a verbal cue to anything until your dog is consistently doing it right. Otherwise, the word can become associated with the wrong behavior, or simply not complying. So get your dog coming to you before you name it "come" or "here", or whatever you want to use. Don't start out by saying the word and then have him not do it. I wait to name attention "watch" until after my dog is consistently looking at me, so eventually I have both attention on cue AND a default behavior where my dogs look to me frequently even when I haven't given any cue.

It's really easy to build all of this into daily life, so eventually instead of rewarding with a treat, or a ball, or a game of tug, you're using real life rewards. If my dogs walk with me towards the door to the garage, which is where I feed them and access the dog run for potties, if I just stop and stand there by the closed door, they will sit and look at me. That's a default "sit" and "watch" - they've learned that doing these things are what makes things happen, stuff that they value. If I start to open the door and they get up before I've released them to go through the door, I shut the door and wait for them to sit and watch me again. I don't say anything, I just wait. When I put their bowls on the floor they sit and watch me until I release them to eat. They do this because I trained them from a very young age that if they broke the sit and made a dive towards the bowl I would pick it up and wait for them to sit again. So think of ways that you can make certain behaviors work for you in order to get him to do what you want him to do. Instead of having to choose to do what YOU want or what HE wants, doing what you want is the path to doing and getting what he wants.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dogma13
#4 ·
When you call your dog, don't go towards him, go away from him as this will encourage him to come towards you. Agree with the long line 100%.

What's his favorite toy? Have that hidden in your back pocket and whip it out the first step your dog takes toward you.

Totally agree stop the collar grabbing on the couch. Use the long line. I did drills over and over as a game with my young boy move over, get off ect, for rewards when he was a little pup. (there are stairs up to the people bed I was not having him jump). So he already felt happy and enthusiastic about moving over or getting off. I am willing to correct him or have him lose his furniture privileges if he ever acts like acts a jerk but so far so good.
 
#5 ·
He's trying to engage you in play!That's exactly how dogs play with each other...Chase me!Wrestle with me!

If you need him to come,go backwards not forward towards him.If you want him off of the chair call him as you walk away.

You could reward him for compliance with a short game of tug.....do as I ask and only then do you get what you want.
 
#6 ·
There are a couple of things you might want to try. If it were my puppy, for now, I wouldn't give a command, if I wasn't able to ensure he follows through with it, which may mean working on a leash for a while. If he is running away from you when you want to catch him, you could turn and walk/or run away from him, most puppies will chase you--then tell him "here" or (whatever your come command is) and praise him when you're sure he is coming. Or you could get down on your knees and call him in a cheerful tone of voice.
 
#10 ·
To clarify: This only happens when he is in a defiant mood. He responds appropriately to commands 90% of the time. He only disobeys or runs when he is in this "weird" mood. He is off leash because he knows these commands. I use his name to call him. I get excited to call him. He is allowed on furniture when invited. He will respond to the off command almost every time. When he gets "defiant" I cannot foresee it yet. Should I have him drag a leash or lead until he is 100%? Again, this is a situation that happens maybe once a week? It just started happening about 15-16 weeks. He knows his commands...I just need to know how to respond when he "chooses" not to respond.
 
#11 ·
I might try ignoring him completely when he gets like this? Any reaction is what he's looking for. And when I say ignore, no eye contact or anything. Walk away from him. Then when he returns to you, praise him as if nothing happened. Might be worth a shot.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I am not a dog trainer, professional or otherwise. My advice (free and worth every penny) is to think about the behavior differently and respond based on that new/different perception. Frankly, Roux (great name, BTW) doesn't sound defiant to me. Unless you've had multiple ER visits since this behavior started, he's not being truly defiant. If you have, well, then you have a different and real problem to sort out. To me, he just sounds like a big adolescent who's put his own spin on things. However necessary they may be, repetitions can get boring and some dogs can be very creative in how they choose to make the practice "fun."

So, your job is to "see" it as adolescent playing, with a little boundary-testing thrown in to spice things up. I second (third?) the suggestion of a long line (shorter version in the house) whenever you're out and about and want to reinforce the "come." I agree that making yourself the most exciting thing on offer (while moving in the opposite direction) is key to changing his behavior. Dried liver is an excellent reinforcement and I'd keep some on hand for those sofa "encounters" too. Don't forget to praise, praise, praise and treat, treat, treat when he complies. It may take a little time before he gives up "his" version of come and off, but good things usually do.
 
#16 ·
I am not a dog trainer, professional or otherwise. My advice (free and worth every penny) is to think about the behavior differently and respond based on that new/different perception. Frankly, Roux (great name, BTW) doesn't sound defiant to me. Unless you've had multiple ER visits since this behavior started, he's not being truly defiant. If you have, well, then you have a different and real problem to sort out. To me, he just sounds like a big adolescent who's put his own spin on things. However necessary they may be, repetitions can get boring and some dogs can be very creative in how they choose to make the practice "fun."

So, your job is to "see" it as adolescent playing, with a little boundary-testing thrown in to spice things up. I second (third?) the suggestion of a long line (shorter version in the house) whenever you're out and about and want to reinforce the "come." I agree that making yourself the most exciting thing on offer (while moving in the opposite direction) is key to changing his behavior. Dried liver is an excellent reinforcement and I'd keep some on hand for those sofa "encounters" too. Don't forget to praise, praise, praise and treat, treat, treat when he complies. It may take a little time before he gives up "his" version of come and off, but good things usually do.

You're absolutely correct...defiant maybe should be replaced with mischievous! He's not aggressive just testing. This makes perfect sense.
 
#18 ·
I agree, defiance is incorrect. Defiance is something that indicates the need to punish a dog and make him submit obediently. This kind of plays into the ideal of training a dog by making him afraid not to obey because of consequences.

Another ideal is to train the dog to do things because doing what you want is fun and good, rewarded, better than chopped liver.

Do we want a dog that obeys because he doesn't want to be clobbered, or a dog who obeys because we (the dog and I) have a good thing going?

There are a couple of rules that will be helpful:

1. Yes, don't give commands that you cannot enforce. That HERE thing is becoming a game. The game is called CHASE and the it happens to be highly rewarding to a dog. Furthermore, he is learning to ignore commands, or to turn them into a game. You can change the word HERE to COME, that might be helpful. COME is always rewarded and never punished. Never. When the dog comes to you on his own, you can say, Good Come, and praise him lavishly. Otherwise the only time you use the word, COME is when you are training and there is a lead on him. If he does not Come the moment you command it, than give a little tug on the lead, and I usually use a lower tone and say NOW. If the dog happily comes to you, then praise him, Good Come! Treats are good, but they should always be accompanied by verbal praise and phased out.

If the dog still does not come, you reel the leash in AS you walk to the dog, when you reach him, turn with him and take him back to the place where you originally were. Say Good Come, without as much enthusiasm as you would give for a voluntary Come. I would not give a treat. No punishment with COME. it is a life skill.

I add something to COME early on. You can do this while walking your dog on a six foot leash. As you are walking, stop and back up as you say COME FRONT. Stop when the dog is in front of you, and have him sit, close enough to you so you can touch his collar and play with it. Do this several times on walks. And when you are giving a regular recall, add that sit in front of you. If your dog gets loose in a parking lot you do not want him to turn and run back to you, only to do the famous run-by. Very dangerous. Teach him to come and sit in front of you, close enough to play with the collar, and play with it. Then if ever there is an accident, your dog will be expecting that as the rest of the command.

2. Don't repeat commands. Say it one time. Give him a moment to comply, then help him achieve the position. Repeating commands teaches him to ignore the ordinary audible commands, and to wait for the elevated I'm-Going-To-Murder-You tone.

3. Always follow through. Always. If you tell your dog to SIT and he slithers down into a lay, pull him back up into a SIT and tell him as you are doing it, SIT in a stronger tone. This is not a repetition of the command, but letting your dog know that this is the proper command. This is what you asked for. If you tell your dog to Go Lay Down, and he looks at you and sits, and you think that serves the purpose well enough, then you just taught your dog that he can choose to follow what he wants to do, rather than what you told him to do.

4. Consistency. Try to not only use the same words for a command, but also pay attention to your body language. Dogs tend to listen to body language more than our words. If you give the dog a SIT command and a DOWN signal, then they will often go DOWN. Think about it, a dog communicates with others of his kind with their body language. They are excellent at reading body language. So being consistent/disciplined with our body language, our pup will have more success.

4. Timing. Dogs do remember things, even puppies. But, to drive home that the dog did the right thing, communicating that immediately and before he starts another unwanted behavior will keep us rewarding for the behaviors we want.

5. Negative markers. There is nothing wrong with letting our dog know that something is not ok. "NO." or "Eh-eh!" can be effective negative markers to let the dog know something is off-limits, or something was not done correctly. Usually if something is off limits, I tell my dog, "No (or Eh!), MINE." Then I pick up a toy or chewy and say "YOURS." They get it. If a command is executed poorly or improperly, I will say "Eh!" and begin the command a second time, guiding him if necessary. Setting him up to succeed and then praising for succeeding.

6. Set your pup up to succeed and then praise him. Lots of trainers want to set them up to fail, and then correct them. There is probably a place for that, it is called proofing. But at this level, he doesn't need that. Some dogs never do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aly
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top