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Considering returning 4 month old puppy to breeder

18K views 109 replies 40 participants last post by  Chip18 
#1 ·
Hi all,

This is my first post here. Maybe my last? I hope not but I really need some help with my new puppy. My husband and I got her from the breeder 4 days ago. She is our 5th GSD. We are having some normal puppy issues with crate training, biting/nipping, etc but the biggest problem we are having is her barking and lunging at anyone who walks by the front of our house when we are out in the front yard. I say "yard" but its really more of a patio. We live in a townhouse so we just have this small 10x10 grassy area in front of our house that is enclosed by a wrought iron fence. The fence just has posts so you can see through the bars and there is a sidewalk directly in front of the house that is very busy. There is also a school across the street so there are lots of little kids around all the time. Our puppy lunges and barks furiously with her hackles up and anyone who walks by but she'll also bark the same way if there's a person across the street too. She continues barking and lunging long after the people have gone and she seems completely stressed out. I have tried a couple of things to get her to stop by I can't get her attention when she is so revved up. We called the breeder and were told not to let her bark like that, but that appears to be easier said than done. I am really concerned by the fact that we can't get her attention while she is barking and her hackles are up. One of my previous GSDs had a severe dog aggression problem and the main reason that we couldn't correct it was that he was too far gone to listen to us once he started barking. He was from a GSD rescue association and we didn't get him until he was 1-1/2 years old though so we assumed that something had happened to him previously. We had to manage him so much that it was exhausting and we don't want to go through that again. It was actually our main motivation to getting a dog from a breeder this time.

So do any of you have suggestions to help with this behavior? Is it normal? Am I doing something wrong? After having dealt with a dog with serious aggression issues in the past, I know that I am not up for doing it again. I may be overreacting as it's been about 15 years since I dealt with a GSD puppy but I never had aggression type issues with the two dogs I had from puppyhood. They definitely were a handful but nothing that concerned me as much as this does.

Thanks in advance for any help. I really don't want to give up so early but I also don't want to do any damage to this dog if she would be better off in another home.
 
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#3 ·
She's brand new to everything and still settling in.All of the activity in front of the yard is overwhelming and she's anxious.I would take her to a quiet area to potty perhaps in back of the townhouse.I suspect she is just being flooded with too much too soon.Have you tried correcting the barking BEFORE she starts?When she alerts by tensing up and focusing on a person give an EH! and animate a tug or toy to give her something appropriate to do.Very short periods out front.
 
#8 ·
She's brand new to everything and still settling in.All of the activity in front of the yard is overwhelming and she's anxious.I would take her to a quiet area to potty perhaps in back of the townhouse.I suspect she is just being flooded with too much too soon.Have you tried correcting the barking BEFORE she starts?When she alerts by tensing up and focusing on a person give an EH! and animate a tug or toy to give her something appropriate to do.Very short periods out front.
I agree completely. She is overwhelmed. She is a baby. You have only had her for 4 days. Out front is a bad place for her. Keep her inside as much as possible. Find a less busy outdoor place to take her to - even if you have to put her in the car and drive her there. Give her a chance to decompress. I honestly wouldn't be expecting anything from her at this point. You could, at a minimum, hand feed her some kibble teaching her to make eye contact with you before giving her a piece. She will learn to look to you. She will start to bond to you. Do you yell, get anxious and frustrated when she has a barking frenzy? If so, that is feeding her behavior. I have found that responding quietly, or with just a sound is more effective. If you feel she is not the pup for you, return her to the breeder sooner, rather than later. Let the breeder place her in a more appropriate home.
 
#5 ·
This is not normal behavior for a stable dog, I'm sorry. Maybe it can be managed, but you would really need the help of a trainer. Please don't use an ecollar for this without having guidance for using one. An ecollar can be a wonderful tool, but there are wrong ways to use it, and it can make the problem worse. This is definitely not a problem that can be solved on the internet, unfortunately. You would need someone knowledgeable to assess the situation. Someone that knows working dogs, fear issues (that is likely where this comes from) and aggression issues. To be perfectly honest, if the breeder's only advice was to not allow the barking to continue, they don't sound very knowledgeable. I certainly wouldn't fault you for not wanting to deal with this...
 
#6 ·
If returning to the breeder is possible, why not? The pup is 4 months old, you don't know what happened previously that may have caused the reactions, or it may be a temperament issue. I am sure there are ways to correct and manage the reactions, but it may take a lot of effort and time to work with this pup. With your own previous experiences of managing a gsd with dog aggression, are you willing and ready for the challenge?

Or look for another pup with temperament that fit better to your expectations?
 
#10 ·
Hi Eileen. I've probably written 10 times on this forum about how awful my male GSD was at 4 months old. It was exactly at 4 months when he found his voice. He started barking at people and dogs. Then one night my husband was reading the paper and Finn kept nudging him and jumping on him, just wanting attention.

My husband tried to ignore him...then Finn backed up, and started barking, snarling and lunging/hackles up moving closer and closer... my husband rolled up the news paper got up and swatted him in the side of the head with the paper and yelled crate. Finn yelped and ran in his crate. I don't condone hitting but the swat was perfectly timed and he never repeated that behavior.

I took the barking and lunging and snarling as the beginning signs of aggression and called a trainer in my area who is known for the good work he does with GSDs. He evaluated Finn a couple of days after the incident and said he was just flexing his muscles and looking to see what he could get away with.

He recommended basic obedience classes and also fitted Finn with a H. Sprenger prong collar (some people think 4 months is too young for a prong collar but the trainer fitted Finn and showed me how to use it to make corrections during class and while out walking).

That barking and lunging can not be allowed. It's an anti-social behavior and you need to learn how to correct it. ASAP!
Barking and lunging could become a pattern and he'll repeat it until someone takes charge and interrupts it.
I would recommend that you sign your pup up for basic obedience class right away. Try and find a trainer in your area that has experiencing working with GSDs.

For now, don't let your pup in the yard by himself. Keep him away from the fence. Distract him by playing with him. Engage him in games of fetch. Use treats and praise when he shows happy puppy behavior. Keep your own voice happy and upbeat when you play with him outside and inside the house. Good luck.

PS. During Finn's initial evaluation, the trainer noticed that he was lacking ball drive and showed me how to engage him in activities that would increase his drive to play ball.
That made all the difference. Once he learned to like playing fetch etc training and redirecting became a lot easier and more fun.

Good luck.
 
#23 ·
The OP said, "We live in a townhouse so we just have this small 10x10 grassy area in front of our house that is enclosed by a wrought iron fence. The fence just has posts so you can see through the bars and there is a sidewalk directly in front of the house that is very busy. There is also a school across the street so there are lots of little kids around all the time."

VERY busy, across from school, lots of little kids all the time. I call that bombarded. Whatever. I'm done.

OP, I wish you all the best, whatever you decide.
 
#22 ·
Thanks for all the replies so far. I am torn between "a stable puppy should not react this way" and "she's only had 4 days to get used to things". I have had GSD puppies before and did not have these types of issues with them, although we lived in another home at that point with more room for them to run around so they never had to be so close to distractions on the other side of the fence. That being said however, I really don't think a new puppy should be THIS reactive to people and dogs walking by who are showing no interest in her at all.

And just to be clear, the breeder immediately offered to replace her as soon as we informed them about the problem. Unfortunately though this behavior has made me a little gun shy about taking another one of their puppies or really from taking any puppy at all at this point. We are very stressed out be this (and I'm sure the puppy is too!). I think we are going to try to work with her for another week or two just to see how things go but we're leaning towards returning her at this point.

So far she has not been in the yard unsupervised at all. After the first time she reacted, she has only been in the yard on leash and I tried to keep her away from the fence but she still went crazy with the barking and lunging. I have worked with trainers before for my reactive GSDs. Two out of the four previous GSDs that I've had have had issues but they were both adolescent dogs. My husband and I swore that we would not go through that again. I loved those dogs to death but they were very difficult to manage.

After saying all this, I guess I'm trying to weigh out the benefits of trying to work with her a short time to see if there's any improvement or returning her immediately. I really want what's best for this dog as well as what's best for me and my husband.
 
#25 ·
Bombarded, to me, is forcing your dog to interact with a ton of strangers. No stable dog should feel "bombarded" by people just walking by, no matter how many there are. They should be able to observe and not react. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to upset you @Stevenzachsmom. I just know from experience that this type of behavior is not fun to manage.
 
#62 ·
We have a new dog, 14 months old, and we have a small fenced in yard. The road in front is moderately busy, with adults kids, neighbor dogs, and even a group of cows that go up and down the road every day to their pasture.At first, our girl ran out to the fence and barked wildly. After a few barks, I told her that was enough. Now, she still runs out to look and alerts us with one or two barks. I consider that "normal" balanced behavior. If she went ballistic every time, I would also wonder about her temperament, as the OP is experiencing.
 
#27 ·
Thanks for all the replies so far. I am really not trying to cause any problems here.:smile2: I guess I'm trying to weigh out the benefits of trying to work with her a short time to see if there's any improvement or returning her immediately. I really want what's best for this dog as well as what's best for me and my husband. My opinion before posting this was that this is a reactive dog that should be returned but I know that I am gun shy having dealt with this before so I wanted to see if this was something normal that all owners deal with or if it sounds like an issue.

I am torn between "a stable puppy should not react this way" and "she's only had 4 days to get used to things". I have had GSD puppies before and did not have these types of issues with them, although we lived in another home at that point with more room for them to run around so they never had to be so close to distractions on the other side of the fence. That being said however, I really don't think a new puppy should be THIS reactive to people and dogs walking by who are showing no interest in her at all.

And just to be clear, the breeder immediately offered to replace her as soon as we informed them about the problem. Unfortunately though this behavior has made me a little nervous about taking another one of their puppies or really from taking any puppy at all at this point. We are very stressed out by this (and I'm sure the puppy is too!). I think we are going to try to work with her for another week or two just to see how things go but we're leaning towards returning her at this point.

So far she has not been in the yard unsupervised at all. After the first time she reacted, she has only been in the yard on leash and I tried to keep her away from the fence but she still went crazy with the barking and lunging. I have worked with trainers before for my reactive GSDs. Two out of the four previous GSDs that I've had have had issues but they were both adolescent dogs. My husband and I swore that we would not go through that again. I loved those dogs to death but they were very difficult to manage.
 
#30 ·
You have ALOT of conflict in opinions on this thead. Lots of 1 or 2 dog pet people and very few people who have had dozens of puppies. Some good observations and some very very bad ones that show the lack of knowledge and understanding of the posters.


I have had dozens of puppies. I have raised nearly a dozen litters.

If this was one of my litters - I would immediately say - RETURN the puppy.

IF this is a genetically weak temperament - you are not experienced enough to deal with it. I believe it IS a genetically weak temperament. I also do not believe that your environment is the most ideal for a GSD as you describe it. This puppy would never have made it to you if it had been in the hands of a good responsible knowledgable breeder. You are setting yourself up for 10 +/- years of management and worry in my opinion.

Return the puppy. find a breeder with good solid nerved dogs. Ask yourself if you can truly provide the environment for a young GSD....can you provide the exercise, stimulation and training a puppy needs.


Sorry for the bluntness - some of the posts absolutely scared me!


Lee
 
#31 ·
He was from a GSD rescue association and we didn't get him until he was 1-1/2 years old though so we assumed that something had happened to him previously. We had to manage him so much that it was exhausting and we don't want to go through that again. It was actually our main motivation to getting a dog from a breeder this time.
I just wanted to get some clarification, you went through a breeder to get a new puppy without issues but you got a 4month old? Most people that go through a breeder get the puppy at 8 weeks or so. Was this dog one she had kept onto or one that was already sent back and being re-homed when you got him?

I don't know if a few days is long enough to say that this puppy has a problem serious enough to send him back. I would think that you should give him some time to settle and work with him (which you do with any puppy) before making a decision. Maybe a little time could make a big difference with him feeling more comfortable and secure in his new home.

It is not my situation however and you are the one living it, I hope that you can find some helpful information here to make things work or do what is best for the puppy and your family. You are doing the right thing by posting here to try to get help! I wish you all the best :)
 
#32 ·
So what this tells you is :
The puppy doesn't react to the sight of people with a run up for a kiss and love session but with stress based 'aggression' - while barking in itself is not necessarily aggression it's not kiss wriggle love.

That can be worked on.

The problem is you are going to have lots of foot traffic because of that school. And kids tease. And for a reactive dog this could be a real problem for it and you.

So the question becomes is it worth it for you and the dog to fight this problem when temperamentally, due to your past experiences and this dog's behavior, it may be stressful and frustrating for you both?

If the breeder will take the dog back that might be best - because it seems to me that based on your history and preferences and your location, a more laid back dog would better suit.

If you decide to keep it I would not take the dog into the front unless it was tired and then have some one offer treats etc to help condition the dog that people are good. The school situation makes it more iffy, because kids will run by the fence and tease and that can develop into a problem.

Btw I've had half a dozen shepherds and some were love anyone and some were sharp but smart. While mine were never needlessly reactive, sharp ones do take more work and monitoring and it isn't wrong to consider your situation and how it fits with this dog. That is what responsible owners and breeders do.

It is hard to recommend anything over the internet but it sounds like you do have some concerns/ second thoughts. Given the traffic and the school why not have that discussion with the breeder? Only you will know what is right for you and this puppy.
 
#36 ·
Well,this certainly blew up in a hurry.OP,of course you have to do what's best for you and the puppy.None of can know the whole story without actually being there and we all are speaking from different experiences and perspectives.Which is a good thing!So you can start again and give it another week or two to let her settle in or make the tough decision that this puppy is a bad fit for your family.Having her evaluated is an excellent idea.Best of luck to you:)
 
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#40 ·
Doing this to an already fearful, reactive dog is actually not the best idea. if a dog is reacting to people merely walking by, having people approach is not going to go well. And you can't train out genetics. You can only manage this kind of behavior.
 
#38 ·
OP, let me be the next person to say please don't put an e collar on this pup.

If you are willing to work on it, hire a competent trainer. Otherwise, return the pup asap.

I also wonder what the breeder was doing with this 4 month old. Why do they have that age? What did they do with it for 4 months if they did have it (as opposed to this pup already having been returned once)

Is the breeder a backyard breeder? If so that definitely supports the weak genetics theory and since you already said you don't want to do a lifetime of management again, return the pup, or consider surrendering it to a reputable breed rescue if the breeder was disreputable to begin with.
 
#42 ·
I am going to try to respond again. I've tried to post a couple of responses already but they didn't seem to go through. I apologize if you suddenly get "bombarded" by my posts. :)

** Your first 3 posts are moderated. That is why they appeared to not go through. They are there now.

ADMIN Lisa
 
#44 ·
This is a 4 month old puppy that you have had for 4 days. You live in a very busy stimuli heavy area that is overwhelming this puppy. This puppy doesn't know you. He probably didn't come from a situation with this much constant stimulus. In different hands and in a different situation this pup might be entirely fine or if raised this way. You have two options, find a trainer that knows what they are doing or return the pup if you feel overwhelmed. I, personally, would probably return the pup and go with a younger pup that can grow up in that environment. I would probably also avoid lines that tend towards a lower threshold for defense, pups that show suspicion early on.

Just the opinion of someone that has trained, worked and lived with working dogs for over 30 years. :) Pups at this age can go through some funky stages when sold and moved into a new situation.
 
#45 · (Edited)
I was not going to post but after reading all the posts to you I have to speak up. You don't know if the puppy is a nervebag yet or not. Yes, it sounds like it, but you got the dog at 4 months. What did the breeder do with it up until then? Was it socialized dogs, people and traffic, or is this a first experience with any kind of commotion and stress?

Your front yard is your property. It is a place where a dog should feel safe. Your dog doesn't. Your dog is confused by all the commotion. It may not be the sights but the noises. Since you know the breeder will take the dog back, ask if you can have a month to find and work with a good behaviorist in your home. Then if you haven't seen extreme improvement, return the dog. If you do, I suggest waiting and getting a dog from another litter at 8 weeks so you can start exposure gradually from a younger age. Or find a better breeder, because at 4 months, the breeder should have already trained for and addressed behaviors like this.

Is this a WL dog? My WL had some health problems that resulted in less socialization at a young age than I wanted and resulted in some unwanted barking and hackling. I began working with a private trainer because I couldn't consistently get to a class. One trainer said just what is being said here, Your dog is a nervebag. But I know shepherds and I saw him in different situations where he was calm and composed. So, I guessed it was more confusion than nerves. I found a better trainer. I looked at 6 trainers before settling on the one we use now. The new trainer is experienced with WL dogs, evaluated my dog, had hands on him for 2 hours, and told me I have a very high drive, intense dog (breeder said he was medium drive), and he was confused. Just what I thought all along! I gave him a lot of exposure and he is fine now.

I have done dog rescue, and sometimes a dog needs a 2 weeks shutdown in the home. This puppy doesn't need one inside, but may need more exposure away from your property and for now, keep him out of the front yard. If you do that and he is good everywhere else, you will know it's just situational, and then you have to decide if you can use your front yard the same way other people use a back yard.

If you don't want to deal with this, then return him. I don't think anyone should have a dog they are afraid to take anywhere.
 
#46 ·
Thanks Lisa for explaining that my first posts are moderated!

It sounds like some people are saying that 4 months is too old for a puppy. Is 8 weeks the typical age to get a puppy? It seems so young to me but clearly I have a lot to learn about choosing a puppy.

As far as I know, the puppy was not socialized outside of the breeders home. Adults, kids and dogs came over to visit but I don't think the puppy ever left the house except for trips to the vet. I was told that was the only time that she had been in a car. She hadn't been on a leash before either and the breeder is in a much more rural area. So all in all, I'm sure this was a huge shock to her system. However, it seems like an 8 week old puppy would have the same issues?

This is a show line dog. I cannot find any negative information online about this breeder and many people seem to really like them (including on this forum). I really had high hopes for this puppy and agree that she may do well in another environment. If I decide to keep her, I would definitely have her evaluated.
 
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