I admit I probably didn't socialize Ruger with other dogs enough when he was a young puppy. I was too worried about him picking up diseases before his full vaccination series, or about him having a negative experience with other dogs. So until he was 5 months old he only played with our senior girl, and interacted a little with the very calm dogs next door through the chain link fence, and occasionally played with our friends' older black lab and my mom's very laid back malti poo.
Then we went through a 6 week jr. obedience class and he interacted with other pups his age and did fine with them, even played as a group outside, which he was pretty ambivalent about.
We were going to repeat the class a few weeks after it ended but for a few reasons had to skip it and just started a new one now. In the meantime I have taken him out on walks and to Petsmart, etc. And every time he saw a dog he didn't know he would bark and lunge at them. I did my best to ignore the behavior but eventually started correcting him for it because he wasn't getting better. By correcting him I mean a stern "wrong", "leave it", and "watch me", and if he didn't listen, a mild leash correction. I would always take him in the opposite direction from the other dog, and get between him and the dog and make him sit or down and watch me before moving on. Usually, he wouldn't focus until the other dog had disappeared from sight or passed by. But when he did look at me and stop barking, he got lots of praise and treats.
At his class today he was a complete turd and alternately barked at the dogs on either side of him. I didn't let him interact with them at all, and immediately worked on having him focus on me with a "Watch me" command and treating him when he looked at me and stopped barking. Then he started focusing on me when I asked and immediately jumped up and barked again after I treated him. I finally caught on to the fact that he was training me to give him a treat after he barked and then focused on me so I stopped treating him and just made him lay down. Eventually he stopped barking and laid there relaxed, but occasionally would jump up and bark again. We left before play time (trainer and I agreed on the fact that he shouldn't play until he doesn't react to other dogs like that anymore).
So my question is this: is this a lack of socialization or is this teenage hormones? Or a combo? Or me being slow to catch on and training incorrectly? How can I make him stop reacting like this to new dogs in the future? He will likely be fine with the dogs in his class in a couple of weeks, once he knows them. But I fear he will do this every time he sees a new dog out in public.
"How" you socialize is more important than "when" you socialize, so forget you started "late" as it were the dog doesn't care and neither should you.
Petco actually is not the best go to for dog training?? But if that's the best you can do that's the best you can do. But instead of using it for actually "training" you could use it for "Proofing!" You do the work before hand and you can "proof your dog at "Petco."
I don't use treats myself either ... I chose not to bribe my dogs into behaving well. There "job" is to not act like "tools!" Not being corrected is there reward. Once your dog understands that other dogs are not his concern then yes a "verbal" "No" should be sufficient. But right now it sounds like your training "No,No,No" and then leash pop?? If that's what you do?? That's what your dog expects.
But that was then and this is now, so in a lot fewer words ... people struggle with "Corrections" all the time, ie how much is enough??? So you could just say "No" once and if he continues ... use a "Pet Convincer." : Pet Convincer.com
Or less expensive still is a "Bicycle Air pump" found at your local bike shop becasue that is what a "PC" is and it's much cheaper there. Or simpler still a tip to me from a "Pro" here ... just pop him on the head with the loose end of the leash! You don't need to smack the crap out of him, but you need to make it clear ... "that you are not amused!" You'll e surprised at how quickly he will stop the crap!
So get out there in your local neighbor and find barking dogs behind fences to ignore for a few days. Show him how you "expect him to behave" around other dogs and then go back to "Petco" hmm never thought I'd say that?? In anycase Welcome aboard and ask questions.
Thank you for your reply. I don't take him to classes at Petco. I take him to our local humane society that has a certified trainer who has competed her dogs in several dog sports. When I said I took him to Petsmart it was just for shopping, to get out of the house and exposed to the outside world.
I'm wary of "popping" him on the head with the leash. If a leash correction isn't getting his attention, I don't think beating him over the head is a great idea. Wouldn't that just make him more fearful? Reinforcing the idea that strange dogs = bad things happening.
You mention having doubts about popping him on the head making him more fearful. Dogs aren't always necessarily fearful (although they can be) when they react like that towards other dogs. It can be fear, aggression or just them acting like a punk. My dog's leash reactivity was like that. My trainer did not think he was fearful or aggressive.
Have you talked to your trainer about the best way to handle him when he acts up around other dogs? You might get more attention and help with one on one training.
Depending on why he is reacting the way he is, a firmer correction might be necessary to let him know you aren't going to put up with his behavior. Sometimes moderate leash pops like you described giving him doesn't get the point across and sometimes can even amp them up more when they are already in an excitable state.
If your current trainer can't answer your questions to your satisfaction, it might be time to look for a different one.
You mention having doubts about popping him on the head making him more fearful. Dogs aren't always necessarily fearful (although they can be) when they react like that towards other dogs. It can be fear, aggression or just them acting like a punk. My dog's leash reactivity was like that. My trainer did not think he was fearful or aggressive.
LOL yeah I saw that a "leash pop" gets "translated to beating your dog???" Whatever ... one quick decisive correction, worked out fine for "me and my dog." And all he did was look up at me like what "the heck" and stopped doing what he was doing cold ... problem solved and yep it took once!
That was a new approach for me and for me ... it worked out fine. Typically I use a "SLL" and a "Slight tug sideways" and we proceed crap free going "that way!" No treats no distractions, no stopping and sitting. But I watch my (dogs) and most likely I react before they can ... don't know???
But you know ... I suppose any type of "physical corrections" are "subject to interpretation??? Kinda like ... "how slight is slight???"
Nose to Nose meet and greets ... who does that??? Well most likely "Animal Shelters???"
I tried to pull a "Boxer" from an Animal Shelter many many years ago. I contacted a "Boxer Rescue" and they said go ahead and pull him. I told them a bit about my "Band Dawg" and how he ignores other dog so no problem with him?? They said, you pull the "Boxer" and we'll pick him up and ... don't take your dog???
Well ... that seems odd but hey what do they (Boxer Rescue) know?? My dog is fine but ... "apparently" they knew how Animal Shelters work!
So off we go and sure enough they bring the "boxer" out and we meet in a big room both dogs on leashes. A "Nose to Nose" meet and greet?? The "Boxer" was fine with it, my dog ... not so much?? At that time he was trained to "ignore dogs" which he did just fine ... but "meet them" ... not so much!
It went kinda like ..."are you looking at me ... are you looking at me??? You must be looking at me, cause I don't see no other dogs in here???? The "Boxer" backed the heck up!!!!
Needless to say ... I did not go home with that "Boxer!" At the time ... most likely ... it was for the best. They sent someone else to pull him. Apparently "ignoring dogs" and meeting/playing with them are not the same thing ... but a few years later we got there.
Is he solid on watch me, sit and such at home with no distractions? If not, that is half your problem. If it is, work hard on this. Then take him out where you are pretty sure you won't have other dogs around and work him there until he is solid on understanding and doing what you want and need him to do. Gradually work him when distractions are at a distance and as he improves and listens, move slowly closer to where the distractions are. What does your trainer in class say about his barking and behavior? Is he concerned? Talk to him privately and see what he tells you to do.
Hitting him with a leash is a terrible idea and could make him reactive to the leash. Deb's suggestion about working on obedience, giving him confidence through success is best. Strong corrections, loud noises, are all old fashioned ideas that are not going to give you the results you want. He needs to learn to put his entire focus on you and he will stop reacting to other dogs. Once he is trained in obedience, you can gradually socialize him to dogs. I do all that from a distance, gradually moving closer. I have had the exact problem you are having with one of my dogs.
I don't "leash pop on the head" my dogs..I don't think it's a good idea to use the "leash"..It does sound like he's at that punky stage and while I think you are going about it the right way when you walk the other way, remove him, I think you need to 'up' your game..Have you tried using a prong collar on him for a more effective correction?
When I'm working a new puppy, if they exhibit this behavior. I try to anticipate the behavior BEFORE it happens..if I'm approaching another dog or see another dog, and I know that puppy is going to start yapping, I'm working on LEAVE IT BEFORE they start..work on getting his focus back on me, BEFORE, it happens..and yes I will turn and walk away as well ..
I have no problem using treats /toys if the dog is going to respond to that type of reward / distract him back to me etc..whatever works for that dog.
Anyhow this is 'short' as I'm off to work, but just throwing out a few ideas
So it sounds like his engagement and focus on me isn't good enough yet. He is great at home and in the backyard. But walks are a different story. I think I will start working him just in our alley and in front of our house and go from there. I can also take him to the dog park and work outside the fence.
I do try to get his attention before he even sees the other dog, but as soon as he notices, I lose his attention. I might try bringing toys instead of treats.
Should I continue with the group classes while working on this? If I drop out I will lose the money. Maybe she will let me switch to the reactive dog class, though having 5 other reactive dogs in one room sounds like a disaster.
So it sounds like his engagement and focus on me isn't good enough yet. He is great at home and in the backyard. But walks are a different story. I think I will start working him just in our alley and in front of our house and go from there. I can also take him to the dog park and work outside the fence.
I do try to get his attention before he even sees the other dog, but as soon as he notices, I lose his attention. I might try bringing toys instead of treats.
Should I continue with the group classes while working on this? If I drop out I will lose the money. Maybe she will let me switch to the reactive dog class, though having 5 other reactive dogs in one room sounds like a disaster.
Sounds like a good plan. I would continue the classes. If you dog likes toys more, than try using a toy. Sometimes you have to try different things to find what works best with each dog.
I just realized I never answered regarding what my trainer thinks. She isn't concerned and days he is just being a puppy. She knows he had issues with seeing strange dogs waiting outside our previous class, but he was fine with the dogs in his class (when he was 5 months old). Her philosophy is to distract, and if that doesn't work, just shove treats in his mouth when he sees another dog but isn't trying to go rip their head off. Basically trying to associate seeing another dog = good, yummy things happen. She doesn't want me to correct him when he barks at other dogs, just try to get his attention and reward when he isn't barking. Which is what I did until I realized he was training me to give him a treat every time he stopped barking and then went right back to it. I told her about that, and she said to put one or two other behaviors in between the stopping barking and the reward. So instead of just "watch me" and then treat, I should say "watch me", "down", "sit" and then treat. So maybe if I expand on that and just keep gradually increasing the duration of commands he will focus in class. It's between commands and after receiving his treat reward that he goes back to barking.
Out on the street, even holding the treat in front of his nose doesn't break his focus from the other dogs. Think I will try a tennis ball on a rope. He is obsessed with tennis balls. If I can get him to engage in a game with the ball he might forget about the other dogs. I hope.
She doesn't want me to correct him when he barks at other dogs, just try to get his attention and reward when he isn't barking. Which is what I did until I realized he was training me to give him a treat every time he stopped barking and then went right back to it.
Rather than rewarding AFTER he stops barking it would be best to catch him when he sees a trigger but hasn't yet reacted. There are usually some telltale signs, although it can happen really quickly. If you can interrupt the behavior, that's way better because he's not getting the opportunity to practice what you're trying to prevent. The more he gets to do it, the harder it will be to extinguish. Break eye contact, turn quickly in the opposite direction, do anything you can think of to not allow him to react.
Before we put Cassidy in the reactive dog class there was one night in her regular OB class where several dogs weren't there. Due to the size of the room and the number of dogs (maybe 5?) we were able to work in a corner with her back to the rest of the room, and she was absolutely amazing. We actually ended up dropping her leash and she was totally focused on us. But we had distance from the other dogs in the room, and she was facing away from them.
My brothers dog still reacts to other dogs like this, I am actively working on ways to stop this behavior but the ONLY thing that works is a prong collar. I don't want to have to resort to the prong, especially with the new pup coming in a couple months I have sort of made it a personal challenge to try to stop this behavior on my own. I think it's best to look for a trainer who specializes in dog aggressive dogs because I can't do this on my own waiting for a dog to pass by and experiment with different methods.
Well, the trainer and I both thought he was improving but we were wrong. In class yesterday he was quiet, relaxed, and focused on me almost the whole time. Only barked a little when we first came in, after I told him to "leave it" he listened and ignored the other dogs. At the end of the class, trainer suggested he might be able to meet the mellowest dog in the bunch, a lazy 5 month old Great Pyranese puppy. We walked by each other twice first, then had the dogs sit facing each other. All was fine, no signs of a problem. So trainer said to allow a brief sniff. We made sure to keep leashes loose, no tension. It was all good for two seconds, then my dog suddenly tensed and snarled at the other pup and acted like he was going to kill him. I quickly pulled him away before he could bite (not sure if he intended to bite, he probably would have right away if he was going to, right?). The puppy ran the other way squealing. I felt terrible, the trainer felt terrible. They had the puppy meet the other dogs again without a problem so he had positive experiences after that.
So now I have to live with the fact that my dog is dog aggressive. I feel like all my dreams for us, doing obedience trials, herding, anything, have been shattered. I can't trust him. I'm so upset over what happened.
The trainer and I honestly thought his barking in earlier weeks was just him being a loudmouth jerk. His previous group class when he was 5 months old he was perfectly fine with meeting all the dogs.
I don't want to blame this on his being intact, but would his teenage hormones cause this? Does he just want to be the dominant male everywhere he goes? I read through the articles on leerburg.com and it seems like he is showing defensive aggression.
I'm now insisting on NILIF at home (no more pushing our hands to pet him, no more getting on furniture or bed uninvited, he must earn all attention from now on), but I am unsure if that will transfer over to his behavior near other dogs.
I'm also enrolling him in the reactive dog class at a different training facility. I think I might drop out of the obedience class since I don't feel confident controlling him in that small room with 8 other dogs anymore.
I just feel so disappointed in myself and him now.
At the end of the class, trainer suggested he might be able to meet the mellowest dog in the bunch, a lazy 5 month old Great Pyranese puppy. We walked by each other twice first, then had the dogs sit facing each other. All was fine, no signs of a problem. So trainer said to allow a brief sniff. We made sure to keep leashes loose, no tension. It was all good for two seconds, then my dog suddenly tensed and snarled at the other pup and acted like he was going to kill him. I quickly pulled him away before he could bite (not sure if he intended to bite, he probably would have right away if he was going to, right?). The puppy ran the other way squealing. I felt terrible, the trainer felt terrible. They had the puppy meet the other dogs again without a problem so he had positive experiences after that.
So now I have to live with the fact that my dog is dog aggressive. I feel like all my dreams for us, doing obedience trials, herding, anything, have been shattered. I can't trust him. I'm so upset over what happened.
You can still do all those things with your dog. He's not ruined.
I show my dogs, and they walk through a crowded building with hundreds of dogs around, and they don't get to meet any of them. All eye contact between dogs is discouraged. If my dog does lock eyes with another dog, she gets a leash pop to break the contact, and we keep moving.
I don't know, but in my opinion dogs need to ignore other dogs. And putting my dog practically nose to nose with another dog isn't the way to do it. I hope you have a good trainer for your reactivity class and things get better.
Your goal should not be to make your pup like other dogs. Your goal is to train him to ignore other dogs. It was foolish of your trainer to push your dog onto another pup. She should be focusing on getting good, solid obedience on your pup.
That's what will get you where you need to be. Good obedience. If your dog is completely focused on you, he can't worry about other dogs. You can teach him to "look" at you as a separate command using treats. Start at home with zero distractions and gradually increase the level of distractions.
Thank you for the responses. I've learned a hard lesson. Traditional puppy classes where everybody can play as friends are apparently not for every dog. I just wish I had known that before taking him there. I don't think I will be going back there. I doubt I will ever be able to relax in that room with all those other dogs anymore, and I'm pretty sure my dog will sense that. I will be looking for a new trainer. I think I might contact that IPO club I have been thinking of going to. They at least might know of a good trainer around me.
So I found out a little something else today. My husband takes our dog to his friend's house and lets him play with his friend's older black lab. Apparently a few months ago the lab tried to mount our dog, and he jumped away from the lab squealing. That's right around the time his barking at strange dogs started, too. My husband didn't think anything of it, and didn't think to mention it to me because the two dogs get along and play together so he thought it was all fine. He is of the opinion that dogs are dogs and they will sort out their own issues. I am so frustrated right now. I told him to stop taking our dog over there.
So now I'm thinking because the lab tried to dominate him, he now thinks he must be defensive against every new dog he meets. What a mess.
I've been taking my male puppy over to a breeder with similar sized, aged dogs who kept back two girls for breeding. Also there are two similar aged boys that also show up for puppy play in the puppy play yard. They've lately been doing some posturing (growl, show teeth) particularly since an older female has joined them at times, who plays this way. Mostly in the first five minutes. Then they just chase each other around, box, play chicken. They do grab eachother by the fur but I considered that it teaches puppy bite inhibition - not to bite hard. Mostly it's just chasing, boxing, jumping on eachother, wide mouths, but no real teeth. However, now the boys are reaching puberty, starting to lift legs, and I'm wondering if this should be wound down. My pup does love an afternoon there, and he certainly sacks out when he comes back. He is unfixed and I don't plan to fix him for at least a couple of years, until full growth.
There is no "Black and White" answer. Whether or not
puppy "play time" is a "good thing??" Depends on a lot of variables, if none of the puppies are "Submissive/Fearful or Dominant" generally everybody has a great time.
If one of the puppies in a group ... is "leaning towards" one of those behaviours ... it's up to the responsible party (trainer or owner) to "advocate for that puppy" put a clamp on the "bully."
That said ... If you happen to attend a "free play, puppy class" with "Boxers" in attendance??? That's a whole "nother" kettle of nutty?? Hopping on backs to try and knock dogs/puppies over, circling at high speed and punches ii the face of others, is pretty much "normal." Some dogs/puppies don't mind others ... not so much???
Lot's of variables ... training classes with no "puppy free play" avoids potential issues. Pretty much that simple.
chip talks like an android. very hard to understand with the all break ups of paragraphs and the overuse of punctuation. i always get confused halfway through chip's posts.
I have found that all of my dogs have reacted to other dogs in much the same way I have. If on a leash, they feel anxiety or tension that I do...and how I react, respond and pay attention, is largely how they do the same.
I'm not a fan of using the leash in any instance other than to keep the dog attached to my hand. A gentle tap under the chin does more IMO to let them know you don't approve, usually combined with a calm correction. Added to that is an immediate redirection to let the dog know it's not a big deal, let's move on. And as goofy as it sounds, I talk to Comet like one of my kids. "That dog wasn't very nice...he's no threat, just keep moving, let's go big guy." I know he doesn't understand my words but he gets my tone...always done that and NEVER had an issue with he or my previous GSD who was in tact for 15 years.
I routinely take my GSD to Petsmart/Petco to go through this very exercise. I live on nearly 2 acres "in town" and although we have people around us, few people and fewer animals engage with my dog. I feel it's important that both he and I understand how to act and react to situations appropriately...together.
Monday when we went to Petco, a toy dog bared its teeth and began barking at Comet. He barked back and I shortened his lead and calmly instructed him "no, no barking". He backed off and we went our own direction. We met again in another isle...little dog did same thing, Comet did nothing. If I don't care about it, he doesn't care about it.
So much of how a dog reacts is determined by what he/she knows you'll accept and what you do in that moment. And if you don't react correctly, it will only get worse.
I have a 9 month old who barks at strange dogs too... He is very "enthusiastic" when he is on leash and sees another dog. Embarrassingly so. It's a work in progress I guess.
Today he is at the training facility we have used for puppy class and obedience. We haven't been there for a while. They have a "camp" that includes some training and supervised play. I am interested to see how this goes. When we got there, he "met" an 8 month old Great Dane. I would say he seemed a little nervous at first, but in no time he was running around with the other dog. Then a Weimaraner was added. That didn't go so well....:| Weimaraner put away. At that point I left. Haven't gotten any, "Come pick up your Cujo" calls yet. I've got a few more hours before I have to pick up my fluffernutter.....
Today he is at the training facility we have used for puppy class and obedience. We haven't been there for a while. They have a "camp" that includes some training and supervised play. I am interested to see how this goes. When we got there, he "met" an 8 month old Great Dane. I would say he seemed a little nervous at first, but in no time he was running around with the other dog. Then a Weimaraner was added. That didn't go so well....:| Weimaraner put away. At that point I left. Haven't gotten any, "Come pick up your Cujo" calls yet. I've got a few more hours before I have to pick up my fluffernutter.....
It sounds like ... you found a great place! The situation you describe ... is how it is "supposed to work!"
The owners of the facility are watching the pups interaction and if they see "something" they don't like ... they interven. You can't do better than that!!
I say let them ... get a "truly balanced" Boxer owner ... such as my "Struddell" as a client ... at the bare minimum, She'd have made them ... up there game??? That dog is kinda of "PIA" but everybody (puppies/dogs) seem to be happy?? Do we have a problem here???
Turns out my guy had a great day! Even played with the Weimaraner later that day. Trainer told me that he played appropriately with all dogs....from the Great Dane down to a 20 lb little dog. Whew!!! She said he was a little anxious at first and seemed to prefer not getting into the middle of things, but rather hanging on the outside. Sounds ok to me. He will be going back again soon!!!
It's hard to know what is the right or wrong thing to do with puppies. Everyone has a different answer. I tried giving my guy the benefit of the doubt and it turns out he's just a big mean bully. So now I have to try to unravel his brain and figure out which technique is going to make him safer to have him out in public. Everyone has a different answer for that, too.
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