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Nervous on walks especially at night - is trainer right?

5K views 22 replies 9 participants last post by  telavivgsd 
#1 ·
Sorry for the book, as usual:

Our puppy has been growing wonderfully - at 19 weeks he's completely house trained, knows the commands sit, down, paw, speak, stay, and place (though the last two still need some work) and obeys them most of the time, though he's definitely not perfect. He loves people, he's playful, etc.

I've posted before about some problems with him refusing to walk at my work, and with the help of your suggestions, we've gotten past that issue. Unfortunately we have two bigger ones now. If my husband or I take him on a walk individually, he's quite nervous (much less so if we take him together). During the day it's not so bad, and he will still go to people for pets. This nervousness is amplified x1000 at night. Walking around our neighborhood at night, he is hyper-alert, and will panic at the slightest thing - a cat, a dog barking, a person carrying bags. He will literally try to claw his way back to the house -BUT he doesn't cower, shake or really tuck his tail.

Even when we walk him together, day or night, he is very reactive to other dogs on the leash. He takes three approaches to this:
Fear - he runs as far as the leash will let him, and hides behind our legs
Barking - he will bark at the dog before it can approach. He randomly started doing this if we are eating at a restaurant and a dog walks by - something he completely ignored since we got him until about 3 weeks ago.
Looking then ignoring - this happens sometimes, but less than the other two. Sometimes, he will try approaching the other dog to say hi, but he seems kind of socially awkward, if that makes sense.

The thing is, there seems to be no real pattern in which of the three responses he will choose. We live in the city - we have to walk past other dogs. I don't let dogs approach him on the street except in the few cases where he wanted to approach, and I try to avoid walking near them, but sometimes we have to. As far as we know, he never had a bad experience with another dog. We've never taken him to a dog park, are forced him to be around another dog.

Lately occasionally a person walking on the street will also make him nervous when one of us is walking him alone, though no barking, which is strange because normally he LOVES people, and wants everyone to be pet.

Off leash at the park (about 4 times a week) he is much more relaxed about meeting other dogs (only one at a time ever, and only if he seems interested). He's usually scared if they approach him really fast, but then immediately turns around and wants to play. But at the same time seems like he kind of doesn't know how. He play bows, and whines at them, or just looks kind of awkward. Sometimes he gets the hang of it. In general off leash he's much more relaxed.

On my own, I would think this behavior is not ideal, but just to continue exposure, let him investigate things he's afraid of. I'm less sure about how to approach the dog issue, especially the barking at passing dogs at restaurants, and the night walks in our neighborhood are nearly impossible, though I still contribute some of that to just disliking leaving home, since if we drive somewhere he walks ok - night walks at the park are fine, where there's many more people and dogs.

The reason I'm worried is that our trainer seems very concerned - she's told me he's extremely fearful after seeing the night walk, (but noted that he doesn't shake or tuck his tail to the extreme during those times) and implied that she has no idea why this is besides genetics, and it's very abnormal. She's told me that with a lot of work, maybe we can improve his behavior, but he will never be dog friendly. She has GSD experience, but is a positive reinforcement based trainer, and she's making me feel like our puppy is basically a lost cause that we can attempt to do a ton of rehabilitative desensitization work with.

She's suggested things like having a specific mat that he's trained to go to place on, and then we will take the mat outside in the areas he's very nervous, and give him a marrow bone to chew on on the mat, to try to desensitize him to the environment. Is this an approach other people have taken, and has it worked?

She also said to ditch the flat collar, and get a front clip harness, and until then to use a regular harness, because she thinks the leash pressure on his neck when he pulls away in fear is making him more nervous. Has anyone here found this to be true?

I'm guessing the nerves are just a genetic flaw - though we researched his lineage before we got him (pedigree here), and talked to the German Shepherd club here who recommended the litter, but is it really as a dramatic of a problem as she's made me feel that it is?

My husband thinks it's a puppy thing and that he will mostly grow out of it as he gets older, and he's very relaxed about it. I also didn't see it as a severe issue until the trainer made me feel it was. I really like her though, and that's why her opinion worries me so much. Any experience with this type of behavior/recommendations? Is this partly a fear stage, since some of this nervousness is about things that didn't bother him before? Should I be as worried as I am?
I feel like I'm failing my puppy! :frown2:
 
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#2 ·
What people fail to understand is that the average litter of eight pups will have a spectrum of temperaments usually varying in strength of nerves and drives. With the bloodlines of your pup, it is very possible that your trainer is correct if the pup is on weaker side. Of course, your husband could be right also. It sounds like a lot of the issues the pup will grow out of, and your dog becomes a wonderful pet, albeit not necessarily reflective of the temperament the standard says the dog should possess as a German Shepherd.
Continue to work with your pup and good luck!
 
#3 ·
Thanks so much for your response! He was a bit more reserved than his brothers when we first met him, but I've also heard from the owner that one of his brothers tried to attack a small dog in the park (or so the guy said - I thought that was odd for a 4 m/o), so I guess it could be worse.

With the bloodlines of your pup, it is very possible that your trainer is correct if the pup is on weaker side.
Purely curious as someone who has no real experience with reading pedigrees (we had just researched some of the dogs in his, talked to an owner of one, etc.), what do you mean by the above? I'd love more insight into his bloodlines.

We will definitely keep working with him, I guess I'm just trying to decide if it will be with this trainer, or with someone else, and just how worried I should be!
 
#4 ·
If it was me I would stop taking him out at night for a week or two to relieve his stress.Encourage him to focus on you and ignore the dogs and people that pass by.If you want to allow him to play with other dogs make sure it's only during off leash time.When he's leashed his focus is YOU until you release him to sniff.Give the harness a try,can't hurt.One of my dogs walks much better on a harness.Many dogs will pull like crazy with a harness,but you never know until you try.Good luck to you and do what you feel is best.
 
#5 ·
Thank you Dogma! Today when I saw a dog was going to walk past, I had him do a sit/look at me (facing away from where the dog was going to pass). He did turn his head around to look at the dog, but he stayed sitting and didn't freak out, and then focused back on me.

Is this what we should be doing when other dogs are around? Having him sit and look at me?
 
#6 ·
Yes. Giving him something to do that he can succeed at is a great way to build confidence. They learn to go to good behaviors instead of worrying about other things.

Use this focus on you to desensitize him. Start in lower populated areas and keep a distance. Get his attention and the reward him when he does as you ask!
 
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#8 ·
#9 ·
The trainer is right to be concerned. A positive reinforcement based trainer is not the right match for this dog or this problem.

Dogs like this are genetically nervous and fearful. They need to be taught how to act and react in the world through a clear language of reward and aversive consequences for their behavior. They also benefit from having a clear job to occupy part of their brain while out and about. Teaching the dog to heel and enforcing it with corrective consequences is a big part of this as well.

Creating a bubble around the dog won't help. Also Patricia McConnell...psh...just psh
 
#10 ·
This has been my experience for the most part.My Samson is a nerve bag and he's obviously more relaxed when he is focusing on what I want him to do instead of looking around and worrying about his surroundings.

I have to say I am a fan of Patricia McConnell.I gained a lot of insight on how and how not to communicate with dogs.Her philosophy is science based in operant conditioning/classical conditioning.But she does skip right over corrections,unfortunately.She only gives you half of the tools you need.Anyway,the info she provides about the dog/human relationship I found valuable.
 
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#11 ·
She's unforgivably ignorant about e collars and aversive tools and their ability to massively aid in the counter conditioning of fearful and/or anxious behavior. At some point I wish a study would be done around what I've done and some other trainers I know have done to use the e collar and corrections to snap dogs out of lifelong patterns of behavior that were harmful to their so psychological wellbeing. Massive and lasting changes that drugs couldn't fix or help at all. She would see them banned. Makes me furious just thinking about it.
 
#14 ·
You're right,she is a "possie".Both reward and punishment are required when training most dogs.So many people don't understand how to correct dogs properly with a leash,let alone an e collar.Their misuse has resulted in the opinion of many that e collars are inhumane perhaps?The videos put out by some of the popular "dog trainers" using e collars make me cringe.
 
#12 ·
seems like the dog is making too many decisions .

he doesn't decide to go visit people - you are not the dogs escort - you are or should be the leader.

an insecure dog , which he is , scrambling nail digging effort to run home out of avoidance , needs structure and that means obedience.

obedience, mind occupied with handler focus . Pre-emptive .
Ironically people let it go too far. They allow the dog to isolate and focus on something that bothers them, dog or person or something environmental . They go so far as to ENABLE the dog by having him sit and focus even more !

quote Baillif "Dogs like this are genetically nervous and fearful. They need to be taught how to act and react in the world through a clear language of reward and aversive consequences for their behavior. They also benefit from having a clear job to occupy part of their brain while out and about. Teaching the dog to heel and enforcing it with corrective consequences is a big part of this as well. "

YES to that .
 
#13 ·
Yup, a dog that is making bad decisions regardless of the origin of those decisions (fear, anger, habit, etc) needs to have control put on him to where they can't make those decisions on their own anymore. They need to be shown how to act or held accountable for how they act depending on where you are in the training.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Misuse of the tool isn't reason enough to ban it's use. She cherry picks her science. She either knows she cherry picks her science and is dishonest, or doesn't realize it and is ignorant. Neither is acceptable.

Stress is sometimes necessary. Plain and simple.

I have a blue tick hound in right now that is on prozac because it is super anxious, super leash, reactive, prone to escape behaviors, has bad separation anxiety. They were claiming she couldn't even be crated because she would go into this constant state of panic and possible self injury.

If she whined I'd nick her. The nick would momentarily interrupt the whining and I'd acknowledge when she stopped. Very quickly the whining behavior massively fell off. The same was done in the crate. The major noise issues resolved but she'd go into this standing at a crate door panting wildly state of mind. I used the e collar at low level to annoy her and when I caught moments of her tucking her tongue into her mouth the stims would stop. Over the course of about an hour she learned to keep her tongue in her mouth and not pant. The anxiety faded once those behaviors were exterminated through use of the e collar. On the positive reinforcement side she only got out of her crate when she was calm and behaving normally. She also got fed treats when in calm state through the crate doors. The major driver of the change in anxious behavior was the e collar and aversive use though. It was what also stopped the leash reactivity.

The Prozac shes on didn't do it, treat training didn't do it. It was basically harassment with an e collar that got her to calm down and act like a normal dog. Once that state of mind conditioned correction with the e collar was hardly ever necessary, but that initial stress was necessary to get rid of the other stressful behaviors she was constantly putting herself through for no reason other than it was what she had done before and it was conditioned.

She stopped banging up her teeth trying to escape crates, she stopped mindlessly barking and whining for no reason, she stopped the escape behaviors, all her annoying behaviors that made it so hard for her to get adopted (the escape was probably why she ended up in the shelter in the first place) were taken care of with aversive tool use an e collar. The dog is happier and more well adjusted for it and I would bet my life the overall stress of the dog if tested chemically before and after training is lower.

So she can take her little crusade against Garmin and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.
 
#16 ·
There were 3 dogs out of the last two classes that did resource aggression and guarding behavior to the point where the vet behaviorist at a major university here in NC told them to put the dog down. Straight up kill the dog it can't be fixed. 4 week board and train and they were able to go home get control of it and it isn't an issue anymore. All 3 of those dogs were being corrected with e collar to get rid of the behavior. Aversive use saves dogs lives. Period.

The ignorance surrounding training these days in this country is amazing. It is also super frustrating.
 
#19 ·
That is truly awful, and what a way to utterly fail the dog. Are they really so caught up in their ideology that they refuse to try EVERY method before killing the animal? If so, they should be ashamed of themselves and do everyone a favor by quitting their training career (or limit themselves to teaching tricks and not resolving major behavioral issues).

While people tell you over and over not to treat your dogs like children, I think training and discipline are much the same. Praise them when they've learned something new or done a good job; correct them when they break the rules. Dogs and people have to understand both.

I mean, would you give a toddler a present every single time they did something right and never tell them when they're doing something wrong? I should hope not! (Though some have and I can point to my lovely generational brothers and sisters as an example of what happens to humans who experience positive reinforcement only...)
 
#17 ·
It's kind of like with anatomy- form follows function. Get the dog looking the part, and he'll start acting the part. I see it all the time.

Garmin devices are a large part of why I can free run with my dogs and enjoy life with them like I do. They also have excellent customer service and a quick turnaround to fix broken equipment. I give them my business, any time. If people mis-use their equipment, it's just like any other equipment that is mis-used. Cars kill people all the time through faulty use.

Somebody who actually knows how to train dogs needs to get a TV show. The public in America is being largely duped.

It's a huge profitable industry. And growing. And there is so much really terrible information out there. Particularly about dog training. Feeding your dog X brand of grain-free food won't kill your dog, but people seem to invest more effort in feeding, sometimes, than in training. Not training a dog properly is much more important than the specifics of what you are feeding.
 
#18 ·
I think you guys at your board and train do excellent work.There's how many bad ones out there for every good one?How many bad trainers promoting their useless skills on YouTube?It is frustrating.
The blue tick story I found particularly interesting.Once upon a time I had a dog that would panic in his crate.He would pant and drool puddles.I never would have thought to use that method to snap him out of it.
 
#20 · (Edited)
It really is a screwed up way of thinking. If the same dog had cancer and there was a possibility of saving it by cutting off a limb or a massive surgery to remove the tumor even though it would hurt the animal a lot post op they would do it. But e collar correct a dog to rid it of a behavior that if not resolved leads owners with putting the dog down as their lone recourse? Not acceptable!

Vaccines which involve pushing a needle into the dogs skin is ok. Microchiping a dog which is a big gage needle is ok.

E collar or prong to stop a dog from doing a dangerous behavior!? ANIMAL ABUSE!
 
#22 ·
We don't. For the most part we don't go out of our way to try to attract attention like that. If you read the Dogability Google reviews you'll see posts about massive improvements made with fearful or nervous dogs. The more reviews like that we get the crazier the cases get.

You can't ever fully train the fear or nervousness out of a dog that is genetically like that, but you can get massive improvement and enough control to make the dog seem normal in situations it faces commonly everyday. I have a soft spot for the fearful ones. Finding issues for my own scaredy cat dogs growing up was part of the catalyst that caused me to become a trainer in the first place.

Random breedings of street dogs, and breeding for looks instead of functionality and temperament (the shallow American obsession with visual beauty) is largely to blame. The fearful skittish nature is closer to what the animal would be in the wild than a domestic dog. If you don't select for solid nerve and temperament you lose it. People see a dog shaking in a corner and think poor guy must have been abused cue the arms of an angel music, it usually never occurs to them they were just born like that.

It's ok though. They can be brought through it and made stronger. It is just a lot harder to find good information on how and thus is way harder for your average dog owner to negotiate to a solution. That is really the sadder part of it all.
 
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