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Very LONG but please HELP!!

6K views 44 replies 25 participants last post by  Twyla 
#1 ·
The History:
My husband and I had always wanted a family dog. My husband helped raise two GSDs during his childhood/teenage years. One gave its life protecting him as a small child. For those reasons and based on our family environment (time, space, activity, number of people and ages etc...) we decided a GSD would be the perfect addition to our family. Last year we decided our children were old enough (13g, 14b, 16b, 17b, 18b) to be responsible dog owners and we (finally!) had a fenced in yard on an acre of land. The conditions were perfect for adding a puppy to our family.

For a year my husband and I searched for information, breeders, tips and things to know before we even started looking for a puppy. Financially, we couldn't afford to go through a breeder. So we decided to rescue. For four months we searched, until we found a rescue sponsoring a litter of GSD/Lab puppies in a high kill shelter that were to be euthanized in two days. They were 8 week old females. I drove four hours to another state to visit with the litter. When I got there, two of the three in the litter were in the process of being adopted already. I sat with the last one of the litter for about an hour before deciding to bring her home.

We started training immediately in that we took the time to introduce her to each person in the house one by one. She was introduced to her crate with rewards, given toys one at a time, and started learning the "sit" command on the second day. She was trained to sit and wait for her food within the first week. Potty training went really well, she could sleep through the night (about 6 hours) by the end of the first week. We started leash training right away, though that was a real struggle and still is. We started bite inhibition immediately giving her a toy each time she mouthed any of us, yelping and removing our hand if she bit too hard, yelping and walking away if she continued.

We soon discovered that she preferred being outside to being inside, so we built her a 100ft by 60 ft dog run and spent loads of time out there playing in it with her. She wouldn't stay in it alone though, just sat at the gate and barked or whined if we left her in it with us elsewhere in the yard or in the house. We tried numerous times to curb that separation anxiety, to no avail. So we decided to pull the dog run down and section off a much larger portion of the back yard for her to have more freedom to roam on her own. That only seemed to help in potty training (she could go whenever she needed in her spot) and we could generally be in the house for bit.
As a stay-at-home mom, most of the training and care was in my hands and then up to me to teach everyone else in the house the things I had taught her so we would all be on the same page and consistent. She and I stayed outside on the back porch, in the yard, or walking up and down the street from early morning until late evening when she would go to her crate and sleep through the night. The kids would spend time with her in the yard playing chase, or trying to teach her fetch or catch in the afternoon after school. My husband and I would take her on a bike ride, about a mile, in the early mornings when he was off work.

The problem we're dealing with has gotten to the breaking point for me. Biting. I am not referring to mouthing, teething, or nipping. Those things we persist in the give chew toy, yelp and remove, or yelp and walk away methods (although it seems to give her no 'light bulb' moment, we still do it). The biting I'm referring to is bark, down, lunge/jump, and bite. More often than not it is broken skin and when it isn't? She missed. There are very few specific triggers I can pinpoint. It's completely random most times.

One specific trigger I had pinned down is when she had the dog run; I would take her out, play with her for 15 - 20 minutes, and then walk out to let her continue to play alone. Always on a positive note, never if I had just corrected her for something. She would see me leaving, go to the gate, and stand or sit there barking or whining until I came back to get her(sometimes 10 minutes, sometimes a half an hour or more if I could stand it). When I opened the gate to let her out, we would walk two or three steps and she would turn around and go after me. I tried many different ways of getting her out of there. I would walk into the run with her to play for a few minutes before leaving. Opening and walking away. Opening and offering a treat for sit then walking out, staying in with her the whole time and leaving with her. Nothing would stop her from turning on me a few steps outside the run. So we eliminated the run and removed the problem. If every time she turned on me was that simple to fix, we wouldn't hesitate to fix it. However, it isn't that easy.

One random occurrence; she and I are on the porch, she’s laying down on her bed, chewing a toy. I’m sitting a few feet away on the computer. There is no sound on the computer; I haven’t looked at her in at least 10 minutes. I haven’t interacted with her in about a half an hour, but we just had a nice long walk up the road and back for about thirty minutes. She drops her toy, barks, (I look at her) she goes to the down position, lunges, grabs a hold of my leg, leaving a long scratch. I yelp, say no bite and walk into the house.

Another random occurrence; we walk up the road and back. I’m not leash training her so she can stop and sniff everything, I don’t guide her in any direction, just a relaxing, exploring walk. We reach the end of the road, I stop at a safe distance from the main road so that her leash doesn't allow her to reach it, and I don’t pull or tug at her to turn around, just stand still and steady so she knows the end of the line. When she comes back towards me I start to walk back towards home. Nine times out of ten this is how we walk the road. The one other time; we’ll get halfway back down the road and she’ll turn, bark, lunge, and bite. Then I have to hold her away from me and quick step her all the way back to the house before I can tell her No bite and walk away from her.

Those are just some examples, there were many times that, with no warning and seemingly no trigger, she would turn on me. At 10 weeks old I signed her up for a puppy playgroup class for obedience and socialization. The first class, a 20 week old puppy was either trying to “mount” her or stand over her dominantly and she reacted with full snarl and a snap. I almost jumped in to separate, but the trainer said it was ok; she was just giving a warning. The 20 wk old puppy continued to try to mount/dominate my puppy, and when it didn't take the hint my puppy lost it and went after her, full attack mode. The trainer stepped in to separate, picked my puppy up by the ribs and promptly received a bite on her hand drawing blood. The class had to stop so she could bandage it up.

In light of that situation and all the others leading up to that, I contacted that trainer and set up a home visit so she could help us work with my puppy to “curb the German Shepherd in her” (The trainers exact phrase). She came for an hour and my puppy was the perfect angel, until my son walked away from the group. She lunged and grabbed a hold of the back of his calf, head shaking and pulling (thankfully he was wearing pants and didn't end up with a bad bite!). The trainer distracted her with a treat and kept her attention with treats walking her around the yard until everyone but the trainer and I were the only ones left outside with her. The trainer then told me to keep working with her on the come command, gave me a toy for her, suggested getting a Kong, and left. Not a word about the biting.

We have continued to work with her daily. We wear her out with exercise, keep training obedience, and spend time sitting with/by her, just letting her relax near us. The random biting never stopped. It got so we felt we had no choice but to buy a muzzle for my safety so that I could continue to walk her because the random times she would turn she was leaving bruises and bites all over my arms and legs. I took pictures of my arms and legs with each separate bite circled and counted them. Twenty one different bite marks or bruises.

On the recommendation of our vet, we got her spayed at 4 months old. (Yes, I know this is a very controversial subject with many different opinions, it was a shot at calming her down, as some dogs’ do, that swayed our opinion in favor of getting it done.) The week following the surgery was nothing different, still randomly biting at any of us but me and my daughter most often as we were with her most. The second week I was walking her in the yard on the leash because she wasn't allowed to run or jump yet, she was carrying a toy in her mouth, I had treats in my pocket (she knew they were there), and I had the muzzle in my pocket just in case. She dropped the toy, lunged and grabbed a hold of my hand. She wouldn't let go. I had to pry her mouth off my hand. I put the muzzle on her, hooked her to a tree and walked away to tend to my hand.

At that point, my husband and I had a long talk about whether or not we should keep her or try to find her a different home. We were both positive we weren't going to put her down, but maybe our home wasn't the right home for her. My husband suggested letting him and my son take over her training completely and removing me from it. So we gave that a try. He took her for a walk in the morning, fed her, played a bit with her then went to work. While he was at work, my son would go play with her, feed her, walk her, and sit with her. When my husband got home from work; he took her for another walk/run, gave her dinner, and spent some play or training time with her.

After about two weeks of me not having anything to do with her at all, we re-introduced “me” to her slowly. At first I would only go out when he was home and she had a leash on for control. I would let her approach me, offer my hand to sniff. When she “gave me kisses” I would praise and pet her under the chin or on the back (not the head). If she offered her belly, I would give her belly rubs. Then my husband would take back her attention and I would go away.

After about a week of that, I started to go out when he wasn't home. Same routine, approach, sniff, praise and pet, go away. Last week, I started going out to play with her for a few minutes every day. Same routine of approach, sniff, praise and pet, but instead of going away I would offer her a toy and play fetch with her for about 10-15 minutes. Two days ago my husband and I were on the porch talking about how it seemed to be working while she chewed a bone he bought for her. She stood up, and took a flying leap at me, grabbing a hold of my side and leaving a long gash.

I honestly don’t know what to do. I have never encountered a dog with this type of temperament. We have never hit or abused her in any way. I have never “alpha rolled” her, though my husband has given it a try in effort to stop this (she just tried harder so he never did it again). We don’t neglect her; she gets a ton of exercise and affection, has an entire box of chew toys and is smart as a whip when training. But for some reason we cannot find a way to stop this biting. It seems worse with me and my daughter, though she does go after the guys also. It’s completely random, there seems to be no trigger.

So, any advice? Suggestions? Recommendations? We’re completely at a loss. My husband and son do not want to find her another home. They want to keep training her, but at this point I've given up hope that she will ever be trained out of this. I’ll say up front that we CAN NOT afford a behaviorist (I contacted one suggested by the vet, $190 an hour!!) I’m worried that they’ll keep trying until something really bad happens (she bites someone else or their kid) or until she’s too “old” to be re-adopted quickly. What can I do? Thanks for reading my Book!
 
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#3 ·
If you can't get this corrected there is a good chance she will be put down eventually by someone. I think the behaviorist is a must in this case. Some dogs just have a mean streak. We had one a rescue that was fairly vicious for 2 years before becoming the best of all our dogs ever.
How do you know she likes to live outside? Does she sleep outside? Maybe she feels not part of the pack and is acting out.

Others will have better advice than me but please do not take your puppy on a mile long bike ride. That's just asking for hip and joint problems later.
 
#4 · (Edited)
@Wrenai - thank you, I'll post updates, maybe we'll get lucky and find something that will help your puppy too. Have you read the Puppy biting, bite inhibition thread? Lots of info in there! It's my bible.

@SPOTACUS MAXIMUS - A behaviorist isn't financially viable for us. With 5 teenagers we just can't manage to squeeze out that kind of money. Let me clarify the mile run a little bit, we don't run the entire way, there is no hard surface. We're in the country, fields and grass for miles. We run a small way, stop give her water, play or sit with her, go a little bit more repeat. The bikes are simply because she wants to GO and we just can't walk fast enough to get the energy out. It usually takes us an hour to do the bike ride. We stop that often. =) Thanks for the responses though!!

Edit - forgot the "why she likes outside". When we first brought her home she would stay inside with us at a designated "place". If anyone stood up, she raced to the door. If we let her out off leash in the yard, we had to bribe her to come back inside. But if I sat on the porch with her, she would lay right down and go to sleep. Now she spends her days on the porch and in the yard because she won't come in the house without biting someone.
 
#5 ·
#6 · (Edited)
I wouldn't say she likes it outside. Most dogs love to go out, mine jets for the door too, he wouldn't want to live there though.

From your description it seems like she doesn't like to stay out there alone.

But that's besides the point. I doubt that she's biting because of that though you can let her live inside for a while and find out.
She shouldn't be biting at all. Even if she's unhappy living outside, that sti doesn't mean that she should be biting. So something is wrong.


As far as a behaviorist. It's not easy to find a good one and it'd probably take more than 200$ once you do (and you will spend money on the bad ones before you figure out they're bad too).


Sorry, I can't help, no experience with biting. Just wanted to mention the above.


ETA just saw Jean's post. I wasn't talking about her referrals in my behaviorist paragraph


Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#7 ·
I would use physical correction if my dog bit me. Just my opinion.
Also, I highly doubt that it has anything to do with being outside or inside. Dogs have lived outside for hundreds of years without walking around biting people. Also, I don't think a dog would bite because they are mad at you. People tend to humanize pets too much.
Your best option without using a professional (trainer, behavorist) is to be super strict with your training, use NILF (lots of info on the internet), and consistency.
An e-collar may help, if used properly.
 
#10 ·
I can't offer advice as I don't have any experience here, but I wanted to keep updated on this thread. I hope that this can be figured out.

The only that stuck out to me was that the majority seem to her to a female. I know you said one was your son.. but if for two weeks your son and husband were doing everything and she was fine, then you came back.. and it started again, somehow that makes me think you are the trigger. Almost as if she views you as less than her in the pack status. Just my observation.
 
#11 ·
Without seeing the dog, the body language she is displaying during these bites, it would be difficult or impossible to give good solid advice on handling it. Some of it reads like a bratty pup not getting her way, some reads like wires are crossed.

Start with the link that Jean posted above, hopefully your vet will work with you on the cost. Next, I would find another trainer. This isn't 'the GSD in her' causing this. Locate a trainer experienced with GSD and/or working breeds, aggression and takes a balanced approach to training. Verify their experience.
 
#13 ·
Without seeing the dog, the body language she is displaying during these bites, it would be difficult or impossible to give good solid advice on handling it. Some of it reads like a bratty pup not getting her way, some reads like wires are crossed.
I agree. My thoughts reading your post was "bratty puppy" too, and I really didn't like your trainer's "curb the German Shepherd" viewpoint at all. It should be "embrace the German Shepherd" instead, and working with the puppy. The behaviorist does sound expensive, but are there any trainers in your area that work with GSDs that you could hook up with? I think you need guidance from someone with decent experience here, and then it won't be too difficult to have the family dog you really wanted. Good luck!
 
#14 ·
did i miss what age this pup is and what state the op lives in?
i have some suggestions but it would help to know more about the pups age
and also if she lives in a state where a forum member might be able to help

op for now keep that puppy on a leash
if she tries to lunge at you keep her from it by bending at the waist and putting distance between yourself and your puppy using the leash

for now that puppy is always 100% of the time leashed when she is out

i get the impression she sits and barks in her kennel until you come get her
if i am wrong i apologize

but if i am right do not go get her
you have quite possibly taught her that barking and carrying on gets her her way

if she is not crate trained you need to work on that too

she sounds like a bratty pup that needs way more stimulation than she is getting with you and is taking out her energy and frustration on you
puppies play with other puppies with their teeth and since she has no puppy sibling you and your family are that sibling for her

but i could be wrong so we need to see the dog in her attack mode

op if you could reply with age of dog and state that might be helpful
 
#15 ·
I couldn't find it in the original post, but this biting is causing stitches, blood, trips to the Dr. for you?

Is that the biting you are seeing? And experiencing?

Or are you just having a 'I own a GSD puppy, they bite' issue that is SUCH A HUGE PROBLEM WITH OUR BREED that we have a sticky on the forum cause the earlier we DEAL with this the quicker it is fixed?

---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...wner/188549-puppy-biting-hints-tips-help.html

This breed IS harder than many others to raise, train and socialize!

You aren't going crazy and it's not 'you'. It's why it's so vital to work with a responsible breeder and get the right puppy (actually right breed) as a mix to our background and experience so we aren't overwhelmed.

How is your start on ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html

Specially all the 'engagement' training for a bored, over excited, intelligent puppy?

How many hundreds of people have you met with this puppy? Weekly car trips or even more? Socialization is a great way to focus and wear our pups out.

 
#16 ·
I think most dogs would prefer to be outddors than indoors. its just more fun for them. But they also have a need to stay close to their pack. You can condition her to be calm and relaxed in the house by frequently reinforcing calm behaviors.

If you dont mind my saying so, what you are doing is not bite inhibition, its redirecting. From how hard she is biting you, it seems that she has no bite inhibition at all. Mine has grabbed me when fully aroused and angry at another dog and I got in the way, but he let go the moment his teeth touched my skin.

I dont know how old your puppy is, but at a yonger age, ours was constantly jumping and nipping at me, trying to get me to engage with him. Once I realsied it was just play, I could work things out. He just needed more outlets for his energy, instincts and intelligence. Lots more than just obedience training. Scenting games, finding games, round robin recalls, tricks, every thing that engages their mind.

But please do get a behaviorist involved. They will know better what the behavior is rather than any of us even with all your description. It wll give you peace of mind. And it is well worth it. 2- 300$ a session may seem like too much but it is invaluable over the lifetime of the dog. Where do you live? Perhaps there are people close to you on this forum who can recommend someone to you.
 
#17 ·
Another Book..

WOW, thank you for all the replies, it brightened my day to see so many responses trying to help. I'm going to address each response in hope that something I say to another poster might help clarity.

First, I have to explain that it is not that we don't feel the expense is worth it for a behaviorist or that we won't sacrifice elsewhere for something that we could manage in order to get her a new trainer or behaviorist. A little more personal than I wanted to get, but it needs explained. My hubby was laid off from a high income job and is now working an $8 an hr job until he can find something better. With 5 teenagers and bills piling up, I am also looking for work and that's why it's so important we get a handle on this. I won't feel comfortable leaving the kids here alone with her unless we get this under control.

JeanKBBMMMAAN:
Thank you for those links I am looking into them as we speak. If we can get her into ... I'l do everything I can to find the money for it.

Lalachka:
Thank you, We do still bring her inside, but it is very controlled with a leash and a strong hand from my husband and usually no one else in the room while she's inside because of the biting. She just can't "free roam" with us inside.

DPC134:
As many others here on the forums will tell you, with this kind of behavior even telling her no makes her more agitated/aggressive. Physical correction (we feel) would complicate an already bad situation. However, we do use NILF. She, at minimum, has to sit and stay for attention or food. During play she has to sit and "watch me" (not the toy) before we throw it again or reengage etc. I will look into an e-collar. Thank you!

Chip Blasiole:
I realized that the trainer might have caused that issue also, now we have to fix it. A prong collar isn't going to happen. I just don't believe in them any more than I believe in de-clawing a cat. Thanks for the response though.

wyoung2153:
Yes, I noticed the female propensity too. I honestly feel that if we have to re-home her because we just can't get it under control, it should be with a strong, active, single male. I think she would be fine in that situation. Thank you.

Twyla:
Thank you, I am going to try to get video today, but as it's random, I can't say for sure I'll get it. I'll post some of her normal play either way, just so you all have a base to see that we know what normal is, and what I'm describing isn't the normal puppy play.

Blanketback:
I really hope it is just bratty puppy. I still have to find a way to deal with it though. ;) Thank you.

My boy diesel:
All of that huge book I wrote and completely forgot the basic information, I'm sorry.
Syn (pronounced Sin) will be 6 months old on June 17th. She is completely up to date on shots and spayed. Weighs about 32 lbs right now. The vet expects her to get to about 85-90 lbs based on her bone structure and feet (they're huge!). I'll post a pic, she really is adorable and has beautiful lines. We live in Florida about 2 hours south of Jacksonville.

At the moment I'm again removed from her. After the last bite we went back to me limiting contact with her at all thinking maybe we just tried too soon. Hubby keeps the lead on her when he works with her.
The only time she is in her Kennel/crate is at night when she sleeps. She doesn't bark unless she needs to go out to potty. Otherwise she is outside on the porch or in the yard or training with hubby on lead in the living room. She doesn't bark when she's outside unless she wants someone to play with, and we oblige her using the NILF methods mentioned above and not every time she barks.

I need to clarify that while she's outside most of the day, she's not usually alone. One of us is out there with her most of the day, the boys take turns spending time with her (it's summer so they aren't at school). Me and the daughter can't because of the biting.
I am going to try to get video for you all to see, because we are obviously missing something.

MaggieRoseLee:
The bites are usually through clothes now as I won't go near her without the most coverage I can manage without overheating. I have studied the biting scales. She is usually around the 3 to 4 mark. The level 3's are drawn blood in a scratch. Jumping up to bite and scratching on the way back down from not letting go. The level 4's are her grabbing a hold and refusing to let go. The one time she grabbed my hand and wouldn't let go was a 5. I did need stitches. It's mostly healed now but will be a scar forever.
I'd hazard to say that there aren't many posts on biting in the forum I haven't read. I found this forum about two months ago and spend probably 4 hours or more on it a day just reading through everything, watching the videos and I LOVE Leeburg. He's just awesome, I try to practice what he teaches, but I'm missing something.
As for training and socialization, we've seriously taken a down turn in that direction because of this problem and our income change. We were taking her to a huge park a few blocks away a couple times a week, and to the lake at a near by state park (she loves water!) on weekends, but with the income changing and the biting we've limited her socialization to car rides, bike rides with us, having family over etc.. In total she's met around 300 people and been exposed to thousands. She's extremely over excited when she meets new people (she even piddles) but we work on the ignore, praise when calm, treat method with her.

OK another book, but that's responding to each post so far. Hopefully I didn't leave out any answers. I want to point out that we are aware that it is "us/our" training, lack of training, or something that is causing this. No where have I said "she is a bad dog or she is aggressive" because she isn't. She's a dog and we love her, we just don't know what "WE" are doing (or not doing) to cause this issue and at this point are worried that we may not have what it takes to fix it.

I thank you all for reading my ridiculously long posts and trying to hard to help!!!
 
#18 ·
Just more questions to add to the mix ;)

Does she do the random biting when she is 'been to the beach, then the flirt pole, tongue hanging out the side' tired?

Since you have already started biking with her, wonder if her stamina has built up to a high level for a pup? If it has, may be even harder to wear her out.

Has she bitten anyone outside the immediate family?

Does she do the biting routine when doing OB training? Are you doing any other training with her such as tricks, nose work?

How do you feel around her? What voice level and tone do you use?

While you you are set against a prong collar. Try to give consideration to using one. If fitted properly, and used correctly; they aren't the torture device some have made them out to be. If you decide to go with an ecollar, check out Lou Castle.
 
#19 ·
How do you react when she bites you and sends you to the doctor for stitches? I agree this is a potentially very dangerous dog in future, and I strongly feel that some corrections are in order. Either prong or e-collar. You are literally killing the dog with kindness if you don't stop this behavior now. She is young, she can learn and be a dog you enjoy rather than a burden.

It is really important you stop thinking this is something that can be cured with treats and toys. It went beyond that when she sent you to the ER.

Also, it does sound like you may be genuinely scared of her, even now, at 5 months old. A dog knows when you are scared of it and will take advantage. As contentious as he is, Cesar Millan knows this and works a lot with timid owners to get them to be more assertive around dominant dogs. In that area, he makes a strong point.

Without seeing the dog in action, it is hard to know exactly what is going on, but 20 marks and bruises is a whole lot. What you are doing isn't working. Using a prong on a dog is nothing like surgery to remove a cat's nails. While I am against de-clawing, if it keeps a cat in a home and out of the shelter... well- then it gets tricky. Prongs are nothing like declawing, but even if you are against them, if they keep your dog from being euthanized or from biting anyone else- perhaps you could see the merit in trying? Your dog has hurt you pretty badly. A calm, well timed correction is truly what she needs.
 
#20 ·
Answers and A Video

Twyla:
She does not do this when we can wear her out the the point of exhaustion, for about a half an hour, then it starts up again. The problem there is that because of this turning, we can't get her worn out all the way.

I do believe her stamina is higher than normal pups, that's the reason we 'started' the bike rides so soon. We couldn't wear her out playing in the yard, walking, running at the park, it just wasn't enough.

She has not bitten anyone outside the family, because we know there is this issue, we are reserved letting anyone that close without the muzzle on.

During OB, tricks, and nose work training she has done it. Though I usually just attribute it to "not being in the mood" and leave her alone. Most times if I have a treat in my pocket (her nose is amazing, she can smell it a mile away even if I don't let on that I have them) she will go through about 10-15 minutes before she isn't interested anymore. That's when the turning happens and I leave her alone.

As far as how I feel around her, from the beginning it's always been prideful and hopeful. I'm very proud of my puppy, she's amazing. After this started to get bad, I tend to feel betrayed a bit when she turns on me. That's why I walk away. I know she isn't setting out to "hurt my feelings" that's human. She's a dog and she's trying to tell me something but I can't figure it out. At this stage when I approach her I am happy to see her, hopeful she will behave long enough for me to say Hi, but I'm also very cautious and watchful. Getting bitten is not fun.

and lastly, We are looking at getting the e-collar. I have Lou Castle's site bookmarked and am reading it right now. Thank you so much for
your help, it helps me try to see things from an outside point of view.

Muskeg:
I just can't resign myself to use the prong collar, I can't get her to stop choking herself on a regular collar, though we have been working with her from day one and tried many different approaches. I think she would cause herself damage in a prong collar. We are looking at the e-collar though, I'm hopeful that will make a difference. Thank you =))

I put together a video of pics and videos I had from when we first brought her home until about two months ago when it started to get really bad. None of the videos show the actual "turning" but show the beginning of the problem. There were mistakes made, and we've done our best to correct the ones we spotted, but maybe you all will see something we missed. In the video, the first video of her "land sharking" was about a week after she started to lunge at me for making her come up to the porch to eat. I did not NILF her simply because I was so confused that she had started doing this. The second video I was keeping her toy away from her to show what happened if I didn't give it to her, and the one with my son shows where she seems to calm down, will "give kisses" then lunges and bites. He got ripped pants and a long scratch high on the inside of his thigh from it. Again, these are older videos of when this all started and I am aware we made mistakes, we're trying to find and fix our mistakes. Thanks for all your help!!!

 
#22 ·
I just can't resign myself to use the prong collar, I can't get her to stop choking herself on a regular collar, though we have been working with her from day one and tried many different approaches. I think she would cause herself damage in a prong collar.
You have this completely backwards. Your reason for not using the prong is actually the reason for using a prong. Many dogs will choke themselves to the point of permanent physical damage with a flat or choke collar. The prong applies pressure evenly on the neck and in such a way that it's uncomfortable for the dog to pull hard. It's much safer for the dog and promotes better behaviour.
 
#21 ·
I will give you my 2 cents after watching your video, you understand I am going by what I saw on the video, and absolutely mean no disrespect or intention of hurting your feelings or being harsh..Take it for what its worth.

I see a puppy who had no boundaries, he has been allowed to bite , your children cranked him up and he has had no consequences for his actions..He's now gotten away with this behavior and since he's older, his "bites" are getting worse, because again, no consequences, it's a "game" to him. The one vid of you with the squeaker, looks like your holding it high enough for him to jump, your spitting out no bite, sit, no bite, sit, squeaking out of his reach, he's jumping for it, getting cranked up and he's nailing you because he "can"..

I do NOT see a puppy being intentionally nasty aggressive,,he knows who he can get away with stuff with, and he's doing it because again, he "can"..

He's having FUN, while inflicting all these bites/bruises/etc on you and the kids because he hasn't been taught ITS NOT OK..

I know you can't afford it, but your best bet is to find someone who can TEACH YOU how to TEACH THE DOG..

Obviously what your doing isn't working, unless you know how to use an e collar properly, I wouldn't use one, (I am not saying DON'T use one, just know what your doing IF you use one)..

Your thinking on prongs is wrong, a dog will choke himself more on a regular/choke collar than a prong..Heck if your willing to e collar him, a prong is walk in the park. But AGAIN, KNOW how to use it properly..

You've got your work cut out for you if you plan on doing this by yourself, because he's been allowed to get away with whatever he wants, and it won't be an easy fix if you don't know what your doing.

Again, please don't take offense at what I'm saying, I'm just giving you my opinion.
Hope you can figure out how to straighten his butt out..
 
#23 · (Edited)
In the video I see a normal young puppy GSD mix getting taunted and amped up a lot by everyone around him and pretty much doing whatever he wants with no consequences. Why is your son back tying the dog and spraying him with a hose? All the marks on your body look like over the top land shark type behaviour with very poor bite inhibition.

It would probably be a lot more helpful if you posted a video showing your personal interaction with the dog taken by another member of your family, without a soundtrack.
 
#24 ·
Agreed 100%. No boundaries or structure. Kids are taunting the pup by inviting her to chase them. She is over stimulated by stuff she doesn't understand. There are too many people doing things to and with her. Especially the teen boy in blue is teasing her. Catching her is not dog training. I see a normal healthy and fun pup with good resilience.
And find another trainer who respects the GSD in her. Crate train her and do not leave her alone outside at this age. That is something that needs to be taught. And this is only the start of what you need to do....
 
#25 ·
Wow that video was weird to me. What's up with circling all the bruises?
I have 5 kids and I don't let any of them play with our puppy like that. They can tug or throw a ball. No "rough housing" with the puppy. They get plenty of quality time with Zoe inside in a calm environment. No taunting and no teasing. Both kids and dog have strict rules and anyone who doesn't want to listen comes inside when it comes to being in the yard together.

I'm not a trainer and in fact I need help of my own with different issues so I'm not any help. I hope you can find someone who can help.

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#26 ·
find someone who can TEACH YOU how to TEACH THE DOG..

Obviously what your doing isn't working, unless you know how to use an e collar properly, I wouldn't use one,


this
all of it
do not shock this dog for teaching it all the wrong things
jakoda is spot on
find someone to teach you because puppy and dog 101 is beyond you and you need to go back and learn and then teach the puppy
Puppy 101
then move on to dog 101
there are folks with dog sense and this family is lacking because she is a mess due to your mistakes
and because you have no dog sense anything you do with the shock collar will make her worse

wondering if it was noted somewhere along the way where you are located?

finally if you cannot hire someone or get this under control i would encourage you strongly to give her up to a rescue while she is still salvageable
 
#27 ·
I gotta say this first. I saw at the beginning of the video what looked like flashlight/lazer play. Stop the light play ASAP. This is a quick way of developing OCD behavior.

When I asked how you feel around your pup, I was referring to fear, tension, nervousness etc on your part. Even a pup at her age can pick up on these emotions and take advantage of it.

I agree with Diane, this is a pup having fun - painful for you but he is having a ball - because he can.

Somehow, find a way in your budget for a trainer. Even if it is one session at a time, instead of agreeing to a series (series is usually less expensive), do the one session at a time. A good ecollar costs in the same neighborhood as training.

I am back on the prong collar. FWIW _ I use a prong with Woolf. Because of his temperament issues, we had to be mindful of when to introduce him to the prong. We pick his prong up now to go out, we don't have to call him, he hears it and comes to front position to get it put on. Of course, he is nosing it like saying hurry up. With Shadow, our tank the Lab, we have a prong for her as well. Only used it a couple of times on walks with her self-correcting and she is back on a flat. Again, just saying, used correctly, prongs are not cruel, but instead are a good training tool.

I do want to add that once the family learns dog behavior, and the pup learns the basic house rules; this pup looks like it would be a trip to train. In the video the pup looks like it wants to engage, but is confused on how to engage with the mixed signals it is getting.
 
#29 ·
I wish more anti-prong people would try this test. Same with the ecollar, which feels identical to a TENS unit people will happily use on themselves. It's pretty hard to make a nice prong collar hurt even when you're actually trying. Today I put my HS prong over my arm and absolutely cranked the living daylights out of it as hard as I could about 30 times in a row, much harder than I would ever do with my dog. The pressure felt a bit unpleasant and left some temporary impressions on my skin, but it wasn't painful and didn't leave my arm hurt or sore in any way.
 
#30 ·
the reason i say sleeved is that dogs especially sheps have a thick ruff around their neck
a properly fitted prong is painless in that regard and safer than a flat or choke collar
your dog will actually stop choking herself because it is such a safe collar
 
#31 ·
Wow. Yeah I definitely have to agree with what others have said here. From what I can see on the video, you guys encouraged the barking, lunging and biting with how you interacted with her when she was smaller. I also don't think she has lab in her. I would actually guess shepherd with likely pit bull based on her ear set and the way that her face is shaped. They are a breed with pretty intense prey drive also, and a tendency toward tenacity that would make them not want to let go easily.

You can't really rough house with a dog like that and not expect them to be excited with the idea of chase and grab. She got to run after the kids and grab their legs. Stepping on the leash so the dog can't chase or just pushing her away with a no isn't going to be strong enough discipline for a young high drive dog. I would definitely agree with the others about getting a trainer who understands high drive, working dogs that can help you guys get a hold of this behavior before she gets any larger.

I don't see an aggressive dog either. More one that is frustrated and confused when she gets in trouble for something that was okay when she was smaller. Puppies love to play, and as far as she knows, you guys are like her littermates since there was running, chasing and roughhousing when she was smaller.

I know when my boy was getting too big for his breeches because I hadn't really laid many ground rules, that as soon as they started to be laid, he started to understand expectations and his temperament evened out. He's still not 100% but he is a lot better than he was when he was heading down a road that was going to be costly and embarrassing for me. It is much more fun to be the person who others are happy to see because they love your well behaved dogs as much as spending time with you. :)
 
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