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Oh no. Otto seems aggressive.

7K views 93 replies 17 participants last post by  glowingtoadfly 
#1 ·
Otto is about 6 months old now and he still has yet to get his rabies shot she we havent taken him out for socializing yet. When some comes around who isn't part of our household he barks (sometimes growls) and the hair on his back stands straight up. He even aggressively snapped at a cop that randomly came over to pet him. How can I nick this behavior in the bud before something aweful happens? Also, I should add that when someone he doesnt know comes into our house he does all these things (minus the snapping) and we keep him on a leash by our side and ignore his behavior until he calms down and is willing to be friendly. It takes all of 10 minutes for him to realize those people are okay.

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#74 ·
A prong and E collar WTH?? Gotta Goggle that dog!

And a given tool is only as good as the end user! Only dog I had problems with "crappy" on leash was my BullMastiff/APBT/LAb mix only dog I ever used a prong collar on (incorrectly).

My other guys, flat collar and leash and minor corrections... if needed! :)
 
#76 ·
Again, I speak of punishment according to the definition set forth as per operant conditioning not some "correction." If the behavior isn't going away then whatever he was doing was not punishing to the dog or it wasn't clear as to what was being punished. In either case he was not punishing. Pure and simple it is handler error. You have perhaps never seen an aggression case punished away correctly. If you did you would understand.
 
#77 ·
Doesn't matter. You can say, handler error, every time someone does not get the proper results with positive training methods, too.

Oh, the dog will stop going for the other dog if he starts pushing the remote control button. But three years later, the dog is still on a prong collar and an e-collar and the guy still has his remote control. The dog is not trained. The dog is barely managed.

There is poor handling going on with every type of training out there. It does not mean that type of training does not work, it means that some people do not do it well. It is possible that it will be less effective for some dogs and more effective for others.
 
#78 ·
It does matter. Aversive control done wrong is abusive plain and simple. He's likely negative reinforcing and guess why that doesn't work? Same reason the positive reinforcement wasn't working.

But on the flip side positive reinforcement by it's very definition cannot eliminate the appearance of such an antagonistic conditioned behavior such as aggressive reactivity. Maybe you get lucky with a misread case and it was really a frustration case or get decent results with 1 out of 10000 dogs that really really really want whatever the reward was but most times it simply doesn't work and the handlers change their behavior to accommodate the dog and not the other way around.
 
#79 ·
I have to disagree with you. If you have a young dog that is barking and lunging at others dogs. And you remove it from what it is reacting to. And stay below the dog's threshold, while you start training the dog, specifically to build the dog's confidence and to build the dog's confidence/trust in you the handler. And you build that relationship, while the dog does some maturing, and work on basic training. And then start pushing the dog's envelope, always telling the dog what to do, rather than waiting for the dog to react and reacting. You can definitely make a lot of progress, and get a very nicely trained dog in the bargain.

We are not talking about a frustration case, we are talking about a fear-based reactivity. By dealing with the dog's lack of confidence both in himself and in the handler, and allowing some level of maturity without constantly bambarding the dog with what is making him fearful, you can reset, and begin again from a different point of reference.

Too many people take a puppy or new dog they do not know very well everywhere, including puppy free-for-alls, dog parks, and doggy daycare and either allow other dogs to bully or all out attack them, or they completely over-react at all the wrong times. A dog that lacks confidence and cannot feel any trust in the person on the other end of the lead, is likely to act out in ways we don't like because sometimes it works and drives people or dogs away, or gets the human to pull the dog out of the situation. If people reset their behavior with the dog, while they are giving their dog a break, and focus mainly on building trust between the dog and the handler, when they move again closer to those things, the dog, being older, being more confident, and having a relationship with the handler will most likely have a lot easier time managing what the world sends his way.

But of course, that requires the humans to take responsibility for the dog's behavior, and it is so much easier for trainers to say, your dog is aggressive or dominant or fearful or whatever way they want to say the dog is flawed, and if we apply this tool or that tool, we can snap him out of this behavior pronto.
And the thing is, it can work. A sharp correction properly timed, CAN eliminate the barking, growling, lunging, stupid behaviors. It does nothing to eliminate the fear behind it though. I think most of the time the dog does not want to fight, they want what they see as a threat to go away. And if pressed up close by a dog running right into it, some of these dogs will not attack. And some will. The snarling, lunging behavior limits the ability for people to completely socialize the dog.

On the other hand, in the process of building a relationship, building trust, dog classes, where other people have their dogs under control are worked in the vacinity of your dog and you, the dog will become desensitized to dogs at a safe distance, and as we continue to manage the dog, train the dog, build the relationship, and manage the environment, the number of good experiences and increased confidence will bring that dog to a different place.

It is not 1 in 10,000. It is a lot of dogs. What it takes is people to accept that they are not perfect and be willing to change. And it takes some time. Again, though, I really do not think it takes that much more time than throwing a correction collar on the dog and applying a correction of whatever sort. Because I see the results of that thinking all the time.
 
#80 ·
I used to do things that way. I'm telling you it's way way slower and way way less effective than to go the other way with it. Stop the reactivity first then work on root cause and guess what. It doesn't matter what that root cause is. There are four options to a dog when confronting a person or animal. Fight flight freeze friends. When you shut the door on options you don't want to see guess what happens? They pick the option you do leave open. And that is when the magic happens.
 
#88 ·
So when can you trust him enough to walk him off leash through the same route? 10 years?
Why is it so darn important for people that train with methods that include aversives to eliminate unwanted behavior to belittle people who choose to go at it a different way?

What is in it for you? Really?

If someone can make a dog that is being reactive, stable without your methods, then it must not be done efficiently or totally effective.

This stuff is really getting old on here. I am sure some of you have trained plenty of dogs. In my life, there were trainers who trained lots of dogs with choke-chains. The dogs' behaviors improved. They did it for decades. They got results. Did it make them right? Are there no better ways? Is it impossible that because they got results, there are no other or better ways to get from point A to point B?
 
#85 ·
If she keeps allowing him to practice the behavior and get reinforced by it probably never. If you want to go that route you can't drop so far into threshold you see the reactivity or you're moving backward a step or three.
 
#86 ·
The leash laws in our city would prohibit me from trying it.. We are working on off leash heeling and recall, but I really prefer to have him leashed on hikes as we live in a metropolis. I'm OK with never walking off leash except when we go to my husband's parents cabin up north. As far as that goes, our other dog rarely wears a leash when we go up there. She is 2.
 
#90 · (Edited)
Although I know that the reactivity is important to deal with, I am also trying to socialize him as it wasn't done as a puppy, so I decided to risk a long hike through crowded places. He did much better than I had anticipated. I was ready to take him home if he became uncontrollable. Baillif, I am not endorsing any method, or saying that aversives don't work, simply sharing my experience with my dog.
 
#93 ·
And Emily, be honest with yourself and whats really progress. Don't fall into something I see with different people where they start making excuses for why he did this or that, then they quit enjoying their dog and just give up. Be consistent and stick with what you're good at and always be safe.
 
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