For anyone still in the Landshark phase - E-COLLAR!

[jocoyn]

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

very good article to bookmark: http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch3.pdf

scroll down to the Electronic Hearing Aid(no copy/ pasting allowed)

Nice article. Think that is all most on this forum are trying to say.

I will add that I asked a police Master Trainer, when I did something stupid, "how long do you have to do this not to need somebody WATCHING you and pointing out your mistakes" and she said, "NEVER, I have been doing this for over 30 years and still need an objective set of eyes to watch me and point out my mistakes"

[Lilie]

Originally Posted by llombardo

I think lots of people are missing the point here. I don't think most people are against the e collar, but are more interested in why people feel its needed(what other training methods were used first and why didn't those work)? I tend to agree that once a bond is formed between owner/dog, nothing can change that. The bigger question is the age of the dog. As I have said before a puppy needs to be a puppy and enjoy some of the things a puppy enjoys...it is not fair to take that away from a puppy because the owner can't handle the "landshark" stage.

Totally agree!

I find it confusing that folks purchase a puppy already fully aware that it is not going to be a cute little ball of fur, ready to snuggle 24/7. The behaviors a GSD pup exhibits in it's youth should be no suprise. They ALL have the same behaviors. Some to a lesser extent and some to a greater extent.

Suddenly, everyone has that one off monster pup, worse than any GSD pup ever known to man.

[Sunflowers]

I think many purchase without having the slightest clue.

[martemchik]

My only issue with the thread is the title and the information given. I think its more than fair for some people to dispute that a 6 month old puppy needs an ecollar in order to get it out of the "landshark phase." I've been randomly rebuffed plenty of times when a fact that I stated wasn't "complete" and the reason given by the other posted was "just in case someone searched the forum, found your statement, and wanted to take it as 100% fact." (Most times completely out of the context of either the thread or the post).

So now, after this post, people will come on for advice on how to get over their puppy bitting, and will think that their monster is just as bad, or worse, than OP's monster. So then the only answer is clearly the ecollar. And that is just false, for the rest of us, we somehow managed to teach our dogs not to bite us without it. I know for sure all the dogs at my club get taught to not bite without it, and many of those people have had many many more GSDs than OP.

Maybe, this dog is worse than the hundreds that have come through my club, and the thousands that have been in the hands of all the members of this forum. But its pretty difficult to believe that, especially with how the OP describes the other things the dog does (sounds like a very good, sound, dog). I think the majority of us would not have had an issue if OP stated, I had my dog evaluated by a trainer and the trainer said this was the only way to teach your dog to do this. But from an arms-length point of view, to many of us, we have a hard time believing this couldn't have been taught with treats, redirection, or other methods that don't involve any kind of punishment or physical correction.

Anyways...back to the point of this thread giving out misleading information. I remember a thread not too long ago where someone posted about the magic of the ecollar and a new member responded by saying how they can't wait to get one because they can't potty train their 4 month old. They clearly thought that this magical tool would teach their dog to potty outside. So...how many of you would agree that a way to housebreak a dog is an ecollar (or any form or correction)? This is where this thread goes down a slippery slope...

[msvette2u]

we have a hard time believing this couldn't have been taught with treats, redirection, or other methods that don't involve any kind of punishment or physical correction.

If all that one can think of at this point is an e-collar, what will they do if they really need one some day?

[Lilie]

Originally Posted by msvette2u

If all that one can think of at this point is an e-collar, what will they do if they really need one some day?

The next best thing will be a little chip that can be implanted. This chip will submit electrical current shock waves when ever the owner deems necessary. The handler will have a little device on their key chain, much like the device utilized to lock your car doors and set the alarm.

The pup, pees? Shock. The pup whines in it's crate? Shock. The pup doesn't sit? Shock. Down? Shock. Stay? Shock. Paw? Shock. Crawl to it's bowl for dinner? Shock. Be totally still while the handler smothers it with affection? Shock.

Instant Gradification.

[Freestep]

OP, what is your pup's breeding? He sounds like a handful!

I find it telling that most of the anti-ecollar people have never actually used an ecollar. I've never used one, but I certainly would if I needed to... I personally don't claim to be a great trainer, I use what works on each individual dog. Especially if the dog's life is at stake (stop, recall, etc) I will use whatever methods give the quickest and surest result without harming the dog.

For some things like chasing livestock, I would use an ecollar if other methods fail--many dogs simply get the idea that they aren't supposed to chase stock when the owner is present--but if the owner is absent, it's a free-for-all! That's when you have to get the dog to internalize the no-chasing rule by setting the dog up, watching through a window or out of the dog's sight, so that the punishment comes from God Almighty. At least that's how I would do it. I'm sure someone will tell me it's wrong and that I shouldn't own a dog, etc.

The problem with ecollars, and others have already said this, is that most people don't use them correctly. It seems to me that the OP actually *is* using it correctly, after exhausting all other options. Some folks would simply kennel such a dog until he grows out of the landshark phase and becomes mature enough to train.

The only problem I have with the OP's post is that the subject line seems to imply that everyone with a normal 6 month old landshark should slap on an ecollar and all their troubles will disappear. Some folks might read that and gloss over the parts of the post where he talks about his past experience training GSDs, the relatively extreme behavior of this particular pup (I'd call car-aggression at the age of 6 months extreme), and the fact that the pup *is* learning what is and isn't acceptable behavior, without his attitude and drive suffering.

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by martemchik

Maybe, this dog is worse than the hundreds that have come through my club, and the thousands that have been in the hands of all the members of this forum. But its pretty difficult to believe that, especially with how the OP describes the other things the dog does (sounds like a very good, sound, dog). I think the majority of us would not have had an issue if OP stated, I had my dog evaluated by a trainer and the trainer said this was the only way to teach your dog to do this. But from an arms-length point of view, to many of us, we have a hard time believing this couldn't have been taught with treats, redirection, or other methods that don't involve any kind of punishment or physical correction.

Just curious, how can you use "positive" methods to stop car-aggression? Barking, snarling, wanting to chase cars? When a simple "NO" doesn't cut it?

Anyways...back to the point of this thread giving out misleading information. I remember a thread not too long ago where someone posted about the magic of the ecollar and a new member responded by saying how they can't wait to get one because they can't potty train their 4 month old. They clearly thought that this magical tool would teach their dog to potty outside. So...how many of you would agree that a way to housebreak a dog is an ecollar (or any form or correction)? This is where this thread goes down a slippery slope...

It's not the OPs fault that people take things out of context, but I do agree that the title of the thread is misleading. Maybe the OP and the mods can agree to change the title to something like "my experience with an ecollar" or something less inflammatory.

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by Freestep

The only problem I have with the OP's post is that the subject line seems to imply that everyone with a normal 6 month old landshark should slap on an ecollar and all their troubles will disappear. Some folks might read that and gloss over the parts of the post where he talks about his past experience training GSDs, the relatively extreme behavior of this particular pup (I'd call car-aggression at the age of 6 months extreme), and the fact that the pup *is* learning what is and isn't acceptable behavior, without his attitude and drive suffering.

That's exactly what I was going for. I'm not saying OP doesn't have experience, but I just know people with a lot more experience. Plus it sounds like OP went from 2 American pet line dogs, to a very well bred German WL dog that is just a bit more driven than their previous two dogs.

The car thing...definitely something that I've never had to handle, so if OP believes in using an ecollar for that, all the power to them. But the landshark thing (which the thread is focused on and named for), its very hard to believe that the ecollar was necessary. And its not information that I (personally) would want to spread to other people that might be new to dogs or the breed that run into the same issue. I've dealt with more than 3 puppies with landshark issues through my club, and haven't met a single one that needed an ecollar. Is there a chance that OP's dog is different? Sure, but to those of us who have dealt with more dogs than OP its hard to believe. And if that dog is the .01% of dogs that needs an ecollar to learn even the most basic of manners, I don't want to see someone with the other 99.99% of dogs (and much much less experienced as a handler) thinking that ecollar is the solution to all of their dogs issues.

[jocoyn]

I think the title matches the content. Many folks would not have objected for this on an adult dog.

For a Dogtra a 55 is actually a pretty high stim. Not low stim like Lou Castle uses so I am a bit confused there about the actual methods and when the dog is actually getting stimmed. Any trainig I have done using his methods was under a very controlled set of cirumstances so I assume you would set the car situation up like a crittering and dog agression scenario and not be at the point where you would be having to stim a dog while walking down the street because you had already completed the training . FWIW my little female who totally ignored a clear shock from a cattle Denver (you could hear it arc and see her who body twitch) when i drive chasing a goat, has a stem setting of SIX for Lou's methods.

Once things have gotten to this point though correction probably is the only way to get to the dog, but once again it is all about timing timing timing. And you can do that with an ecollar OR with a prong when the dog is onlead. Offlead, the ecollar has some other capabilities.

Honestly, maybe we all need to put our heads together with a positive puppy checklist! I am convinced it can be done and keep going that way more and more as my own skills as a trainer progress--though maybe I will never quite get there.

But punk puppy shenanigans? I just don't think it is usually necessary and should not be recommended to "mark your calendars" for some magical age.