For anyone still in the Landshark phase - E-COLLAR!

[JPF]

I can't imagine anyone on here so critical of using an e collar has actually used an e collar correctly. At our dogs working level I can barely feel the "shock". A yank of a flat collar certainly hurts more not to mention an actual prong. Our dog is not "damaged" by it. The holier than thou attitude by many on here is a little bit annoying. You are all such amazing trainers,happy?

[Marc]

Originally Posted by JPF

I can't imagine anyone on here so critical of using an e collar has actually used an e collar correctly. At our dogs working level I can barely feel the "shock". A yank of a flat collar certainly hurts more not to mention an actual prong. Our dog is not "damaged" by it. The holier than thou attitude by many on here is a little bit annoying. You are all such amazing trainers,happy?

Excellent post.

I think its very frustrating when people come on here talking about how certain punishments are HARSH, or CRUEL!

in the wild, if these dogs got out of line, they would be BITTEN by the alpha, sometimes causing injury. A little shock, a prong collar or a smack on the nose, is NOT going to mentally harm the dog in ANY way. Constant bullying WILL cause the dog mental harm, but that is another issue, and not what this thread is about.

Positive re-enforcement is scientifically proven to be the best training method, you can not deny this, however, it can NOT fix all problems. A good trainer will use positive re-enforcement most of the time, including negative corrections when necessary.

Just like humans, some dogs just ARE that stubborn and need physical stimulus to correct their behaviour, saying you dont agree with that just "Because", is igorant and foolish.

I attend obedience class, run by a retired K9 trainer, and a local Shutzhund club and ALL of the trainers in both of those places, use primarily positive re-enforcement for training, but when the dogs step out of line, then these use either harsh leash corrections, or a prong collar. My dog is only a baby at the moment, so I am not using any of these methods, but when she is an adult, if she shows disobedience, then she will be corrected, in any of the ways I mentioned above INCLUDING an e-collar.

Again anyone who doesnt understand the methods used, and has a moral high ground on this issue is just ignorant.

[sparra]

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

So to clarify... with all the posts you've made on this thread, you've never used an ecollar, correct? Or you have, but never on this particular dog?

Don't really see the relevance....if Kaylee is to be criticized for being "for" e-collars having never used one I wonder where that leaves the countless people on this forum that argue "against" also having never used one.

[llombardo]

I think lots of people are missing the point here. I don't think most people are against the e collar, but are more interested in why people feel its needed(what other training methods were used first and why didn't those work)? I tend to agree that once a bond is formed between owner/dog, nothing can change that. The bigger question is the age of the dog. As I have said before a puppy needs to be a puppy and enjoy some of the things a puppy enjoys...it is not fair to take that away from a puppy because the owner can't handle the "landshark" stage.

[jocoyn]

Not opposed to using an ecollar in the hands of an experienced trainer.

Personal preference - no - I think it takes something out of the dog, even with low stim. And I strongly believe you CAN get reliability with other methods.

Opposed to suggesting it as the first line training for a normal boisterous puppy.

If a puppy has, due to lack of handler skill at dog training, gotten to be large and out of control it may be a tool of last resort. But not one I would want to go out and tell everyone else (particularly when you have a short amount of time or even zero experience with it) how "wonderful" it is and how they should use it.

I have been there and used it (many hours on the phone with Lou) for an older pup with a very serious game chasing problem. I took the next pup and socialized it heavily with farm animals and taught him obeying me was a lot more fun that being interested in them at a very young age to cut off the behavior before it ever developed. If the chase is never allowed to happen, and all that prey drive is transferred over to a toy early on.....very early on.........it changes how the dog thinks about other animals.

Used properly, though it has its uses. I sure don't see every police dog or SAR dog wearing one, though. Actually very few, but some do. Reliability is an absolute must in those disciplines.

[GSDElsa]

There is a lot I can say here.....but you are using an e-collar at a FIFTY FIVE on a SIX MONTH OLD?!

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

One thing I do when I read posts like this is to go back and read through the OP's old posts to get an idea of what has been going on.

I am not sure why the 6 month mark has been the guidepost all along, but it is something in hindsight that I wish I/we had addressed. I do not think that 6 months is a magic number for a puppy to start acting in a certain (adult) way. Or to start adding tools/changing training up.

It is interesting in how we look at a dog and what they do and interpret it. I think that this sounds like a fun dog that I would be looking at channeling some of that sporty drive and desire to interact with their person into using a tug as reward, taking some basic agility classes, etc.

Nancy/jocoyn - some very interesting observations on the police/K9 trainers.

[jocoyn]

I will say there are some departments where ecollar use seems to be a mindset and others where it is not and only used if other methods are not working. So my report is based on my experience with those local to me. As far as nationally, what percentage use them, I don't know. But it gives me pause to wonder when I see a career Master Trainer for a port city police depatment using a Halti on her malinois (she is a long tim maligator person) for working through a problem....same trainer used an ecollar on her cadaver dog lab who was intent on chasing ducks.

[onyx'girl]

Originally Posted by sparra

Don't really see the relevance....if Kaylee is to be criticized for being "for" e-collars having never used one I wonder where that leaves the countless people on this forum that argue "against" also having never used one.

I just asked the question, was there judgement in my statement?
I use an ecollar, never implied that I never used one or am against them. They have their PLACE in training, and there are times when there is no reason to use one.

I just want to understand that in all of her word y responses she's posted whether or not she's experienced enough to judge how effective they are compared to other methods.

[onyx'girl]

very good article to bookmark: http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch3.pdf

scroll down to the Electronic Hearing Aid(no copy/ pasting allowed)