For anyone still in the Landshark phase - E-COLLAR!

[jocoyn]

I guess my response was because the orignal premise was the encouragement of anyone with a high drive headstrong 6 month old puppy in the landshark phase to jump aboard and mark their calendar because the e-collar is the solution of choice.

I don't know too many folks who train with ecollars even consider using it at this point for that purpose.

You have recently had their first "magical" experience with the e-collar and have not had time to look at other dogs (or their own dog over time) trained with one and start putting together pros and cons in their heads.

Never claimed to be an expert -- always something new to learn --- yet myself and some of the respondents have raised multiple GSDs, and WL GSDs without; that is all we are saying.

I actually have a testimonal on Lou's site about using the collar for crittering on a difficult dog but I never used it for anything else and never felt the desire or need to use it with the next two dogs who were acutally more driven AND intact males. Did not use it with her for obedience either. I respect Lou, think he has some good insights. Don't think anyone has all the answers.

So all I ask is for people to think long and hard. The typical ecollar dog I know wears it for all its waking hours with due diligence paid to rotating it to prevent sores, and the handler must have the remote handy all the time. I decided this was not a choice I personally wanted with my goal being pure obedience with a completely naked dog.

And if you talk with folks, even Lou, you will see most do expect the dog to wear the collar most of the time as a way of life. Else they will become "collar smart".

So it is a decision I would encourage people to look at and decide if this is a way of life or a surgical tool or even not needed at all.

I see very few people criticizing other PEOPLE about their choices but rather the choices they are suggesting others make. Go back and re-read the thread and you will see what I mean. All these claims about you being horrible dogs owners are being read somewhere between the lines and not on this thread.

There are only a few "in your face" comments but not from those who have made comments suggesting another approach.

[KayleeGSD]

Originally Posted by llombardo

I would like to point out that while this is true, the same goes for other trainers who choose to use things like a prong. I had to buy a prong for my dog to go to a class that was held at the local GSD club. I went once and that was enough, because what I saw made me sick. There was not one dog in that room that would be considered not reactive. They had muzzles on most of them. The teacher had to put me on the other side of the room. So if this is the result of training methods other then positive or even positive with some corrections then NO THANK YOU.

These videos are interesting with some good points made. I am not sure if these were shared on here or not but I shall post it,

Positive Reinforcement Vs. Corrections Part 1 - YouTube

Positive Reinforcement Vs. Corrections Part 2 - YouTube

[llombardo]

Originally Posted by KayleeGSD

These videos are interesting with some good points made. I am not sure if these were shared on here or not but I shall post it,

Positive Reinforcement Vs. Corrections Part 1 - YouTube

Positive Reinforcement Vs. Corrections Part 2 - YouTube

I got as far as the Part 1 about half way through when I decided that while I might agree with some points I absolutely do not believe that a dog stops listening to commands when food is not present. My golden just turned three and he was trained with positive training and 2 years later he is even quicker with the commands without food that he was back then. I do agree that when you have one tool that you become creative. There are so many exercises that can be done positively so the dog truly learns to understand. I want a dog that knows how to make choices. To make choices because they made them and not because I corrected them a million times. I can't tell you how many times trainers I have gone to have said, let her think, she will do the right thing. And they are right, she does.

[MarkJoel60]

KayleeGSD, I agree with almost everything you've said in your posts, but I wanted to chime in with two things:

First, you're wasting your time. When people use terms like "Shocking your dog into submission" it is clear to me that they either did not read my post, or can't read for comprehension, because I have never said anything close to that. Believe me, Ninja has not been shocked into submission. He is still the happy GSD he's always been who wakes me every morning by licking me in the face, and follows me around all day hoping for a chance to play. The only time he looks even a little bit like a scared submissive dog is when I call him for a bath -- but that's a different scenario (and no, I don't shock him when he doesn't come for his bath...)

Listen, people are going to believe what they want to believe, so my advice would be raise the dog the best you can and ignore the people on here that have minds like funnels.

Secondly, this isn't quite true:

Originally Posted by KayleeGSD

What I like about the e collar is the fact that it is hands free operation during training unlike using a leash and collar. It is operated using a remote.

The way I do it, it is not hands free. I still use the leash, but I have one hand on the leash and one hand on the e-collar control dangling around my neck. So, in that respect, it isn't easier. It has other advantages, which I outlined in my first post. But it isn't a hands free solution. If you wanted to use it to teach recall, of course, that would be different. But stopping unacceptable aggressive behavior, and training him not to chase cars -- these are all things that I do while he is on a leash AND on the e-Collar. FWIW.

I'm no expert. I just read everything I could, and took the basic behavior techniques used to shape a dog's behavior, and put the e-collar into the mix.

I thought of doing a quick YouTUBE video showing it in action, but the "problem" is that Ninja is such a perfect gentleman when we are out for rides and walks that I haven't nicked him in days.

[KayleeGSD]

Originally Posted by llombardo

I got as far as the Part 1 about half way through when I decided that while I might agree with some points I absolutely do not believe that a dog stops listening to commands when food is not present. My golden just turned three and he was trained with positive training and 2 years later he is even quicker with the commands without food that he was back then. I do agree that when you have one tool that you become creative. There are so many exercises that can be done positively so the dog truly learns to understand. I want a dog that knows how to make choices. To make choices because they made them and not because I corrected them a million times. I can't tell you how many times trainers I have gone to have said, let her think, she will do the right thing. And they are right, she does.

That is great that your golden has done so well. I am looking to make one simple point. It worked for your dog and it is a wonderful thing to happen using only positive reinforcement. This is not the case for many people out there. I am not looking to crush anyone's ideas, methods, or say I am right. All I am saying is look at all the tools and methods and find out what works for you and your dog.

What I question is what happens when you have a dog who does not make the correct choices? Or a dog who does not respond to food, toys, or praise? In a real life situation out in the open some dogs will not respond and engage in dangerous behavior. There are many tools and methods to teach people the how to. If some one uses positive reinforcement only and they get the dog to do then that is great. If some one decides they want to use an e collar and train properly using this tool that is great.

I would not stand there and correct the dogs behavior a million times and push them into anxiety mode to make sure they finally get it. I believe it is a balance of using tools/methods that work when correctly applied which depends on the individual dog, owner, and situation.

I myself use a combo of positive reinforcement, and corrections. Positive reinforcement is not the only way to go with every dog out there. You have many methods and tools to pick from. It is about what works for the individual dog & owner. With every tool available there is a right way and a wrong way to use it. It is up to each individual pet owner to do the research, take classes, ask questions and find out for themselves what works. Select the tools find out how to use them properly and learn as much as you can. Research trainers, classes, and people who specialize in dog behavior. If you want to use positive methods only then do it. If you want to use another tool you have that right. Just make sure you are PROPERLY applying it. I see so many negative comments about e collars along with a huge debate over them. People are going to use them and many have had success with the tool.

In the end the choices are up to us. No one is ever going to agree on training methods/tools. I for one can agree to disagree with respect. All I ask is for people to look at what is available and figure out what is best for them and their dog. Positive reinforcement, e collar, corrections, no corrections what ever they decide to use. I would think many people would agree on the proper use of any method or tool so if you do not know the how to you should take the time to learn what ever method/tool you decide on!

[KayleeGSD]

Originally Posted by MarkJoel60

KayleeGSD, I agree with almost everything you've said in your posts, but I wanted to chime in with two things:

First, you're wasting your time. When people use terms like "Shocking your dog into submission" it is clear to me that they either did not read my post, or can't read for comprehension, because I have never said anything close to that. Believe me, Ninja has not been shocked into submission. He is still the happy GSD he's always been who wakes me every morning by licking me in the face, and follows me around all day hoping for a chance to play. The only time he looks even a little bit like a scared submissive dog is when I call him for a bath -- but that's a different scenario (and no, I don't shock him when he doesn't come for his bath...)

Listen, people are going to believe what they want to believe, so my advice would be raise the dog the best you can and ignore the people on here that have minds like funnels.

Secondly, this isn't quite true:



The way I do it, it is not hands free. I still use the leash, but I have one hand on the leash and one hand on the e-collar control dangling around my neck. So, in that respect, it isn't easier. It has other advantages, which I outlined in my first post. But it isn't a hands free solution. If you wanted to use it to teach recall, of course, that would be different. But stopping unacceptable aggressive behavior, and training him not to chase cars -- these are all things that I do while he is on a leash AND on the e-Collar. FWIW.

I'm no expert. I just read everything I could, and took the basic behavior techniques used to shape a dog's behavior, and put the e-collar into the mix.

I thought of doing a quick YouTUBE video showing it in action, but the "problem" is that Ninja is such a perfect gentleman when we are out for rides and walks that I haven't nicked him in days.

I totally get that and it seems that people constantly like to make negative comments. With Kaylee the e collar training will be used to create reliability for the recall, sit, down, stay. The tool has so many positive uses and it seems you only hear about it when it is not used correctly.

I am glad you have had success in stopping the car chases. So for me I am not making any more comments on this thread I said my peace and thank you for sharing the experience you had with your dog! I will update Kaylee's progress when we start her e collar training

[onyx'girl]

I will update Kaylee's progress when we start her e collar training

So to clarify... with all the posts you've made on this thread, you've never used an ecollar, correct? Or you have, but never on this particular dog?

[Verivus]

Sorry, if you can't get through the landshark phase without an e-collar... well... I'm inclined to think it's you and not the dog.

[msvette2u]

Sorry, if you can't get through the landshark phase without an e-collar... well... I'm inclined to think it's you and not the dog.

Yep...it just makes me

[Jag]

Originally Posted by Verivus

Sorry, if you can't get through the landshark phase without an e-collar... well... I'm inclined to think it's you and not the dog.

One of my points. The other being the age of the puppy it's being used on. This is NOT an adult dog we're talking about. We're talking about a puppy. Some of the 'corrections' are for normal GSD puppy behavior.

I'm not anti-ecollar. I'm open to that as an option for IPO training when my dog is actually a dog. I would not use it for puppy behaviors or for training the 'basics' of obedience to a pup. There are other ways. If you have a dog who doesn't respond to treats, toys, attention, etc. then I wonder if the handler has a bond at all with the pup. Some critical steps have been missed. This isn't guesswork. I have a high energy, high drive dog. He seems to find ways to grab things when he's right next to me and requires constant supervision unless he's in his kennel. However, I know I don't have a bad dog. I don't have a disobedient dog. I don't have a dog at all. I have a puppy. He's displaying normal puppy behaviors. I brought this puppy into my home, and it's my job to teach him what I want him to know. It may take more time and more energy on my part, but this is what I signed up for. Training helps to build a bond.

There are so many threads here that detail (step by step) how to teach your puppy to do "X", it's not funny. Sometimes you have to go through many trainer to find a good one. I will be driving to another state to make sure my boy gets the best possible training. They are there to teach the handler. Has anyone heard the saying "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is?"

Of course, they're your puppies, and you can do whatever you want with them. No one is debating that. However, putting those comments out there in a community that values this breed as something pretty darn spectacular, you must understand that there are things that every GSD owner goes through. It's like a 'right of passage'. Also, no one wants to see adult 'tools' used on puppies for being puppies. I'd like to see more open mindedness for WHAT people have, what is normal and deal with it accordingly. These stories make me think of using a cannon to swat a fly.