For anyone still in the Landshark phase - E-COLLAR!

[jocoyn]

This is true. But plenty of working dogs (police, search and rescue) are trained these commands with a high degree of reliability without the ecollar.

I work an offlead cadaver dog and it is imperative that I have a bomproof recall under distraction, as well as a drop/stay. I was taught by a bomb dog handler/ K9 officer without any tools but a ball on a string.

Just saying those are valid uses for using it, not opposed to someone who wants to train with it, but don't think it is the only way to skin the cat.

[Mrs.K]

Same here. Indra never needed an e-collar to get a reliable re-call while outside training. She never needed an e-collar for a reliable re-find either. There was something far more powerful involved and that's a ball on a string.

[KayleeGSD]

Originally Posted by jocoyn

The ecollar is just another tool nothing more nothing less.

As far as positive methods not working on some dogs. MEH. The more I learn the more I think a great trainer can train with a very limited repertoire of corrections. I am not where I want to be yet with this but it humbles me when I see a teammate do things with my very headstrong dog using only positive methods and makes me realize the possibilities.

Though I use corrections, every day I try to be better and better as a positive trainer. I see the police using more and more positive methods in their own training these days.

EDIT- I guess the issue I have is "for anyone in the landshark phase". Not sure how but we got through it relatively unscathed with a little monster with patient redirection. This is done all the time with very bold puppies with much in the way of fight drive as adults.

Positive reinforcement is what I used for Kaylee to teach basic OB. A ball was her motivator to become engaged. The methods were used as provided by our trainer and classes we went to. These methods only went so far with her. For the landshark phase I kept her on a leash in the house and did the appropriate corrections as needed. I mentioned in another post exactly what I did with her I'm so ticked of right now!!

What my plan is when I start training with the e collar this is to make sure recall, sit, and down is reliable. Right now Kaylee listens 90% of the time and for 8 months old that is okay. Right now we are still working on rank drive and making our foundation rock solid. This also involves positive reinforcement I still use it every day for different activities we do together.

On leash she listens 100% of the time and does excellent. I need her to do the same off leash. The e collar training was also suggested by our trainer as a possibility. I need Kaylee to be reliable off leash. I am in no rush to push the training right now I have all the time in the world. My goal is to do this the right way and make sure the day I leave this house that Kaylee is 100% trained, reliable, and happily working.

Honestly if she would have been much worse during the landshark phase I probably would have gone with the e collar earlier ( 6 months old). I think it depends on the dogs individual behavior and how bad it is.

[jocoyn]

Originally Posted by KayleeGSD

Honestly if she would have been much worse during the landshark phase I probably would have gone with the e collar earlier ( 6 months old). I think it depends on the dogs individual behavior and how bad it is.

Could be it depends on the skills of trainer. I am pretty sure the dogs the police work with are some pretty tough customers. Some use ecollars, many don't.

Never had a trouble with the landshark phase though.

[MattLink]

I don't smack my dog for misbehaving. Not because I think it'll hurt him, I know full well that a tap on the side or nose won't hurt. I don't smack him because I don't want our relationship to be based on fear in any way. When I see a dog owner move his hand and the dog flinches, my heart breaks.

This is the same reason I won't use an e-collar. I don't want him to avoid something because he's afraid, I prefer he knows better. So I put in lots of time and effort. Everyone has their own feelings, but this is how I feel about it.


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[KayleeGSD]

Originally Posted by jocoyn

Could be it depends on the skills of trainer. I am pretty sure the dogs the police work with are some pretty tough customers. Some use ecollars, many don't.

Never had a trouble with the landshark phase though.

I agree with you on that. My question would be how the training is done what did this person do and more important how did they do it to be successful with this particular dog. I ask myself okay this is what I am doing and I will take into account maybe I am doing something wrong. I myself found out I was reading certain things wrong with Kaylee. I am always willing to listen to people who have real knowledge and experience training dogs. Even our trainer had some really good ideas using the positive reinforcement methods that were new to me and successful when practiced.

When Lou Castle gave me suggestions about greeting behavior and rank drive I took the time to read it and learned a lot. It also made a HUGE difference with Kaylee when applied.

Yes skill levels do matter when training any type of dog. There are many methods one can learn and use. I have a problem with people rushing out to get any training tool and not take the time to learn how to use it correctly. Same with not being consistent when training.

The e collar is a training tool some people like it and use it and others do not. If I exhausted everything that I did and I was not successful. The bad behavior jumping, lunging, biting, grabbing continued to escalate and become worse and more aggressive. Then I would have used the e collar to help train and correct the behavior. I cannot have a dog jumping, lunging, biting, or grabbing people. During that time it was hard and I had my moments of being frustrated. I was lucky that I had help and suggestions from our trainer and reading about different ideas online from other pet owners. I certainly would not have ran out bought any tool with out learning how to properly use it first. It seems like with each dog that I have had they have made me learn something new. There are so many things to learn so any chance to improve skill levels is always a good thing

[Marc]

Originally Posted by MarkJoel60

I know there are some on here who will tell you that e-collars are inhumane and the only way to train a dog is with a clicker and positive reinforcement. To those people I would say: You've never met this dog. I would have said the same thing after my first two GSDs. This guy is different.

That is the real important thing about using an e-collar, or any kind of punishment/correction techniques, it all depends on what works for the dog. Some dogs NEED some sort of physical stimulus. I think there is a line with positives only on one side, and negatives only on the other. A good trainer, lies somewhere in between. Anyone whose relationship with their dog starts to deteriorate because of corrections, is a very BAD trainer, no matter how obedient the dog is. and on the other side, anyone who has a fantastic relationship with their dog due to using positive only training, but can not get them to obey, is also a bad trainer, and as I say a good trainer should lie somewhere in the middle, using as much positive re-enforcement as possible, along with discipline when needed.

Im glad that MarkJoel has had success with the e-collar, BUT to anyone thinking of getting one, please PLEASE for the sake of you and your dog, make sure you research them THOUGHOUGHLY!!! so that you can use it correctly, and you dog can get the idea.

[msvette2u]

It's not inhumane - that alone is not the issue.
But you're missing out on some very important bonding processes with your dog and inviting in some very unwanted behaviors.
I'd advise anyone thinking of using one so early in a dog's life and for such mundane things...well, mundane, easily fixable things, to find a positive only/clicker trainer and go with them.
If you're trying clicker and positive on your own, you're likely not doing it quite right, because it does work.
To write it off without giving a trainer the benefit of showing you the correct way, that's as bad as buying a collar and simply shocking the dog into "behaving".

A "for instance" for you. Bark collars. Same principle. I use them. I've used them. Batteries are all dead now so not using now but I don't mind using them, but I use them because they work - while the thing is on.
When it's off, you realize quickly you've not taught the dog anything other than "when the collar's on, it hurts to bark".

[Jag]

Wow. This is the most disturbing thread I've read in awhile. You've got ordinary 'pets' under a year old being "trained" to not do puppy things with an E-collar. What I see are high drive dogs that were placed into the wrong homes, and owners who don't have the patience to train a dog and go through puppy hood. Guess it's easier to go buy a shock collar and read some internet directions than to GO to a TRAINER. SMH
Worse thought... they *aren't* high drive dogs, but just your average GSD pup in the wrong hands.

[msvette2u]

Well, when people see their puppy as a destructo-dog, when any misbehavior (land shark, too) is seen as "a bad dog", or "more stubborn than others", this is the result.