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Old 12-23-2012, 09:16 AM   #131 (permalink)
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I think the main issue here, atleast for me, is using an ecollar on a 6mth old puppy..

I have used prong collars, am not against them, and I'm not against e collars. I agree both are good tools when used properly.

My issue is using one on a 6mth old puppy. I'll come right out and say it, and may not be popular, using one on a 6mth old is in my opinion, the lazy way out of training a puppy. Most 6mth old puppies still have the attention span of a gnat, will listen one day, blow you off the next. Pretty normal. It's 'easy' to put an ecollar on a 6mth old and have them instantly trained.

I guess for me is what's the challenge?? I am not purely positive, I'm not old school, I use what works, I like a challenge, and I like seeing results that I've acheived with puppies..

Ok done rambling Off to make a living
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:18 AM   #132 (permalink)
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The Schutzhund clubs you went to sound like they train in very archaic methods. The ones I've been to have slowly been moving towards compulsion and treat based training. I've never once seen anyone correct hard enough with a prong to make a dog yelp...even the most vocal of dogs at my club.
Did you ever watch someone teach a dog not to be dog aggressive? Especially if that dog had been bitten by another dog in its younger life?

My experience is that a dog that has been bit by another dog is changed forever. They usually because HIGHLY dog aggressive, and I have never seen that behavior curbed without some serious correction used.

In the club I belonged to, part of the trial was to not only have the dog heel off leash, you also had to walk through a group -- which would include other dogs. So, having a dog learn not to be dog aggressive was critical.

It's amazing when I come on here and read about other's experiences with GSDs. It's like we've lived in alternate universes. Because I have never seen a Dog Aggressive GSD unlearn that behavior without correction.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:25 AM   #133 (permalink)
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Ok we have all sorts of threads on managing dog aggression (without over the top corrections, BTW) so lets keep this one where it started (ecollar, 6 month old puppy chasing cars).
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:25 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Honestly, when I go back and re-read the first post, it is like you want a confrontation and you are reading it into every response.
I didn't want it -- but reading through some of the other e-collar threads, I would be lying if I said I didn't expect it.

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What you do is your business - just don't want others to think it is "good advice".
Which means that you believe it is "bad advice", right? That is always the underlying message around here, isn't it? Whether it is directly confrontational or not, there is an accepted way of doing things. And this isn't it. So that makes it wrong...
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:31 AM   #135 (permalink)
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Every dog has different thresholds....so what may work for yours may not for another and someone reading this thinking the level of 55 for a dog is ok is not good advice, because they may interpret it differently than how it was posted.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:48 AM   #136 (permalink)
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Which means that you believe it is "bad advice", right? That is always the underlying message around here, isn't it? Whether it is directly confrontational or not, there is an accepted way of doing things. And this isn't it. So that makes it wrong...
Hate to use the 'word' wrong.................

What I will say is that many of us have learned the hard way what works best for our dogs. And the one who got confused and didn't learn as well as it could have was our dog.

So with the experience and training we've gone thru, we try to steer people in the right direction so they also don't have to learn the hard way but instead can learn the SMART way from our experiences.

When I know better, I do better. I never PURPOSELY messed up my dog or trained in a manner I didn't feel appropriate. But I have learned so much over the past 20 years of training and in NO WAY train my dogs now like I did my first puppy.

I now know what the end behavior I want from my dogs look like. I have realistic expectations and I can better keep in mind that they ARE dogs so learn differently from humans. So just cause it makes sense to me (as a human) doesn't mean it's as clear to my dog. And just because a training method may seem to work well and fast (like correcting a puppy for playing with me by using an e-collar) though I KNOW absolutely the corrections will stop the biting (win, right?). I also know that it's better to NOT go for the quick fix on many issues like this and instead work on the bonding, relationship building, and smarter ways to train that may take more time and patience but are worth it in the end.

If I didn't mention it before, I LOVE the e-collar! I LOVE the prong collar! I'm not all treats and clicker..... there are absolutes and corrections in my training. But instead of that being the first option and training method to go to.... it's so far down the line it's not even funny. Because I know, really really know, that there are many other smarter methods to train a puppy that also work.

So if, in the meantime, I need to learn more patience. I need to learn new methods. I need to realize the quick fix isn't always the best fix. Then that's all stuff on my shoulders to learn so I can be a better dog owner and guide my pup through the next 12+ years in a consistant and balanced manner.

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Old 12-23-2012, 09:53 AM   #137 (permalink)
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Which means that you believe it is "bad advice", right? That is always the underlying message around here, isn't it? Whether it is directly confrontational or not, there is an accepted way of doing things. And this isn't it. So that makes it wrong...
There are about 38,000 members on the forum, including you, who are free to post as long as they follow the rules. The rules are pretty much along the lines of what most folks learn in kindergarten. So I am not sure you can say there is an "accepted way of doing things"
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:47 AM   #138 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MarkJoel60 View Post
Did you ever watch someone teach a dog not to be dog aggressive? Especially if that dog had been bitten by another dog in its younger life?

My experience is that a dog that has been bit by another dog is changed forever. They usually because HIGHLY dog aggressive, and I have never seen that behavior curbed without some serious correction used.
There is dog aggressive and fear aggressive, I would think that a dog that is attacked will be fear aggressive and depending on how its handled it can end there or go on to be dog aggression. I have a dog that was attacked as a pup, he is a happy go lucky dog with no aggression problems. I NEVER corrected him, we moved forward with puppy classes and positive training. He loves all dogs, cats, and people. So it isn't about the dog, its about the owner/handler and how they choose to fix things.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:04 AM   #139 (permalink)
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Mark, the bottom line is, we don't NOT correct our dogs. When it's appropriate, we do. ALL of us, at some point.
Yes we've all learned positive is a great way to get results, and without confrontations, but at times, yes, dogs need a correction.
We use electricity. I've used bark collars, a hot wire on my fence (designed for horses, not dogs, they do get "zapped"), and prongs. Prongs, used correctly, are not cruel.

However, you're not using your e-collar correctly. Because 1) it's a puppy and 2) you're just not using it as recommended.
And we're all saying, if you're going to use it, no matter what the tool, use it correctly.

And since you're dead-set on doing it this way, well, then, we won't change that, but we don't want "newbies" stumbling across this and saying, "OH, good idea!" because in the long run, it simply isn't going to be a solution.
It's a band aide, at best, and at worst, could quite probably backfire and make your dog worse.

Our goal in training is to teach our dogs things, other than "ouch, that hurts, I'd better not do it again...at least while this thing's on my neck".
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