For anyone still in the Landshark phase - E-COLLAR!

[msvette2u]

Or "mark their calendars" for the day to run out and get one...

[Lilie]

Originally Posted by martemchik

The Schutzhund clubs you went to sound like they train in very archaic methods. The ones I've been to have slowly been moving towards compulsion and treat based training. And guess what, you can really see the difference in the way the dogs work. A simple pop with a prong or even the tightening of a leash is usually all it takes for the dog to figure out it did something wrong (after it knows what is expected of it). I've never once seen anyone correct hard enough with a prong to make a dog yelp...even the most vocal of dogs at my club.

Do you feel that the dog also learns to read your body language?

[Jag]

I can honestly say that if I were to put an e-collar on Grim and deliver a shock every time he went after a car, it would only intensify his reaction to them. Grim is a 'vindictive' pup. If something pisses him off, he'll go after it with everything he's got. One of the many reasons I'd pass on the e-collar for him unless it's with a trainer with experience in them for a specific thing... like off lead direction for his IPO or PP training. I don't know how 'hard' your pup is. However, it seems like you're describing him as an unusually hard dog. (A lot of WL dogs are very hard, though) My guess is that without the threat of a shock, the dog would actually ramp up his attack on the cars, which would be even more dangerous. I'd rather have a pup trained to ignore it and focus on me. That way he becomes desensitized to the cars, and I don't have to worry about 'payback' later. JMO

[MaggieRoseLee]

I'm going to ask this thread be locked because as Sunflowers mentioned, it went from using the e-collar for a puppy just play biting, to now using it for a reliable 'come' so a dog doesn't get killed by a car.

Completely different uses for the collar and not fitting the subject any longer.

[Jag]

A lot of threads may end of differing from the title, but even so... this thread has remained civil and on topic generally. I have to strongly disagree that it deserves to be closed.

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by Lilie

Do you feel that the dog also learns to read your body language?

It does...but down the line. So in this discussion when we're talking about a 6-8 month old pup I wouldn't expect the dog to understand body language yet. At the end of the day we're discussing something that a majority of us would've dealt with over a couple of months, using compulsion and possibly very light correction. The difference is that some people want the dog to learn something today, and not take the time to do it properly over a few weeks or months.

[MarkJoel60]

Originally Posted by Sunflowers

Perhaps it might be a good idea to change the tittle of this thread.

Might not be a bad idea. It seems that most people came into the thread thinking that I was suggesting shocking the landshark phase right out of the puppies, which was not what I meant.

I have been called archaic and old school, but I generally believe in letting puppies grow and discover things throughout the first 6 months. Yes, I do some small corrections, but most of the time, I am simply trying to use distraction as a means of surviving the puppy stage.

I don't want the puppy to live in a world of No.

For me, the point where I first begin to start serious training is at 6 months. That's when he wore a pinch collar for the first time. That's when I bought the e-collar.

The other dogs I had were actually pretty well behaved during the puppy-phase (I see that now. At the time I thought they were a handful, but I had no idea...) The biggest problem I had with either of my other two GSDs was pulling in the leash when we went for a walk -- something that is not a big deal and is easily corrected once we start working on training.

This guy is different. He didn't pull on the leash, He spun around, bit feet, tried to herd cars... all sorts of things. That is more of a challenge. And the car chasing thing was a real concern. I can accept working through things, but that was dangerous, and had to be stopped.

As far as the people who seem offended that I would want to "assert my will" on the puppy -- I guess I just don't understand why that bothers you so much...? Ninja joined my pack. He needs to fit into it -- for his sake as well as the rest of the pack. As the head of the pack, it is my responsibility to make sure he fits in. That is exactly the same as would happen in the wild. The new puppy doesn't come along and make new rules, and everyone else tries to adjust. When a new pup gets out of line, Alpha brings him back into compliance.

I'm not running a democracy here. He needs to fit in. And he is doing very well at that. The upside is that he is much happier now. He goes for rides, and gets to explore new places. He gets several walks a day. Everyone is more willing to engage him in play because they don't have to worry about it ending with bruises and lacerations. Yeah, sometimes he still plays too rough, but he's starting to understand that when that happens, he needs to dial it back. Over all, he is a lot more calm these days, and sweeter to everyone in general. His aggressive behavior in play has been tempered mostly, and he is not nearly as pushy as he was before. He is more fun to be around.

All of that isn't because of the e-collar, of course. (He doesn't wear it inside at all). What the e-collar did was bring back two very important activities: The walk and the car-ride. Two things I had to discontinue because of his over-aggressive attitude towards cars. Getting those again -- and more of them -- makes him calmer in general. And makes me happier, because I love taking him places.

I really don't care if this makes me out to be Attila the Hun in the eyes of some people (who have never met me -- or Ninja). I'm trying to do what is best for Ninja -- and my family. The e-collar helped that. Tremendously.

[MarkJoel60]

Originally Posted by Jag

I can honestly say that if I were to put an e-collar on Grim and deliver a shock every time he went after a car, it would only intensify his reaction to them. Grim is a 'vindictive' pup. If something pisses him off, he'll go after it with everything he's got.

Well, the thing is that he doesn't know the shock comes from you. Unlike a pinch collar, that is at the end of the leash that you are holding, the e-collar is invisible. I wear the controller on a lanyard around my neck, and hold it (in the hand that doesn't have the collar) as we walk. I don't hold it out like its a phaser I am about to fire, I simply say: "No!" and hit the nick -- which lasts for 1/10th of one second. If Ninja looks back at me, he sees me simply walking along behind him. There is no connection in his mind to the nick and me. He hears the "No" from me. But where does the correction come from?

As far as he knows, the punishment is coming from God, and I am only the prophet trying to warn him to change his ways before it happens.

That might be a stretch, sure... but the point is that a correction with a prong collar is a lot more likely to cause Grimm to get angry with you, because he knows that you did it.

You know, I sort of get the people who believe in only positive training not liking e-collars. It is a form of correction, which they don't believe is ever justified. I may not agree with them, but I understand where they're coming from.

What I can't for the life of me understand is why people who use prong collars think e-collars are evil. I really think its a stigma attached to them, and that is a sad thing. Because they are a great tool.

The correction from an e-collar lasts a brief time (1/10th of a second) and is always the same level. There is not any randomness. I don't care how good you think you are with a leash, there have been times you've popped your dog harder than you meant to (or less than). That is the nature of using a flexible lead and a dog that is moving at an uneven pace.

There is none of that with the e-collar. You have complete control over the exact level of correction. It is always brief, it is very easily to make it immediate. It isn't evil. You can use it in conjunction with prong collar training (which is what I do) and it simply gives you more control over the corrections.

IDK why people are so crazed about it...

[onyx'girl]

The people who get 'crazed' about it are reading posts from people who have no clue how to use one, yet put it on their dog and stim away.
That's usually the issue when e-collar threads get out of hand.

Or when a certain someone comes on an e-collar thread and over analyzes everyones posts and usually it ends up getting snarky instead of constructive conversation.

[jocoyn]

I think most people who responded do not think ecollars are evil, but were just commenting on your technique and approach in using it, and quite a few have used and have them in their toolboxes. Honestly, when I go back and re-read the first post, it is like you want a confrontation and you are reading it into every response. What you do is your business - just don't want others to think it is "good advice".