For anyone still in the Landshark phase - E-COLLAR! - Page 12 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

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Old 12-19-2012, 11:08 AM   #111 (permalink)
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I would like to hear his opinion as well and be open minded about it. Since the OP linked to Lou's site, I am assuming he is claiming to use that approach though there are others.

Still not conceding that this is the only way to reach the goal but I don't think that Lou's methods, properly applied, damage the dog. The statement about crying out on continuous and the approach the OP is using is what confuses me.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:11 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by onyx'girl View Post
leash?
Of course, I have my dog on a leash when we walk him. It's the law where I live, and it would be irresponsible not to... but I don't know what perfect world everyone here lives in, but in my world, it is possible for a dog to get out.

It doesn't happen often. But if you take ten years with a dog -- especially a high drive and athletic dog -- the probability that he will one day get out of the house is fairly high. Someone leaves a door open, the latch on the gate didn't close right... whatever. It happens.

I guess based on the reactions of everyone here it has never happened to them... whatever. It has happened to me.

And when it happens, the last thing I want is a call from the neighbor telling me my dog is lying in their yard bleeding and dying because a car hit him. That has never happened to me, btw. The main reason I originally got the e-collar was to ensure it never does.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:15 AM   #113 (permalink)
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I'm confused...if the dog accidentally gets out because someone left the door open, there'll be people around to catch it, right?
If not...how did the door get left open?
And if the gate is not shut and nobody is home, is the collar on so the dog "thinks" it'll get shocked?
If nobody is home and he gets out, how long before he realizes there is no shock coming and it'll be a free-for-all on the road chasing cars?

BTW, I'm very bad at clicker training, but without the use of a clicker I showed a couple how to easily distract a dog from wanting to kill our cat, using treats and voice alone. You simply reward the dog the moment it looks away from the object of chase. You continue that until the dog no longer cares about the object of chase, because he's focused on you. And no, he doesn't get a treat every time.

If I can do it, the average pet owner can.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:38 AM   #114 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jocoyn View Post
I would like to hear his opinion as well and be open minded about it... The statement about crying out on continuous and the approach the OP is using is what confuses me.
I am not sure what approach is confusing...?

Again, I put the collar on him, and over several minutes, I slowly raise the stim -- 1 level at a time -- until I got a reaction from him. The reaction was not crying out or yelping, it was simply looking down at the ground as in: "Hey, what was that?"

That is the level I use -- For him it is 55 (out of 127).. The dogtra collar I use has three settings: Vibrate, Nick, and Continuous. Other collars have a "boost" level, but mine doesn't.

A Nick will send a "single rapid pulse of electrical stimulation" that lasts a fraction of a second. I've tried to time it with a stop watch to see exactly how long the pulse is, but my reflexes aren't quick enough. I would guess that it lasts about 1/10th of a second.

The nick is what I use 99.9% of the time.

If he does not respond to the command to "leave it" as the car approaches, and starts after it, I tell him: "No!" and nick him. Even when we first started, that was usually all it took. But some cars -- I don't know why -- really get to him, and he thinks he has to chase them. When I nick him and tell him no, and repeat it, but he is still snarling, pulling on the leash, and trying to go after the car, the I say "No!" and hit continuous. I never held it for more than a second, and I doubt I even did it for a full second.

Yes, that makes him cry out -- but no more than a severe correction with a prong collar would. (Actually, this dog is a little bit drama queen -- he cries out if he walks into a cabinet door he wasn't expecting to find. And he's very chatty -- almost as much as a Siberian Husky...) I have been involved in Schutzhund clubs before. I have watched corrections administered with a prong collar on a dog who was getting out of hand. Believe me, the e-collar is better.

Like I said in an earlier post... I would make a video of it in action, but the reality is that he hardly ever gets nicked any more. He hasn't been constant-stimmed since the first day I took him out. And I am not about to manufacture a scenario to stim the dog just to satisfy some board members whom I don't know, and frankly, I don't care about.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:47 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msvette2u View Post
I'm confused...if the dog accidentally gets out because someone left the door open, there'll be people around to catch it, right?
Geeze... Maybe. Maybe not. Are we going to argue about hypotheticals now, and whether my friends are capable of running down a German shepherd who got out and is chasing a car? Really?
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Originally Posted by msvette2u View Post
And if the gate is not shut and nobody is home, is the collar on so the dog "thinks" it'll get shocked?
If nobody is home and he gets out, how long before he realizes there is no shock coming and it'll be a free-for-all on the road chasing cars?
Honestly, I am not sure if you are just baiting me to get into an online argument, or what... but what is confusing about this?

The point is that I am training him not to chase cars. By teaching him that he is not supposed to chase cars, he learns not to do it. So, if he does get out, he may roam the neighborhood and ruin someone's flower garden, but he won't be chasing after the first car that comes by -- which in my neighborhood is fairly frequent.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:54 AM   #116 (permalink)
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If nobody is home to administer the shock, the dog will still chase cars, I'm willing to bet on it.
It may take a few minutes for him to realize "hey I'm free, and there's no discomfort on my neck, either!" but he will, if the drive is still there to chase them.

This is what I said way early in this thread - you can use a bark collar on the dog to make it stop barking (a shocking bark collar, well, even spray for that matter).
But when you take off the collar it takes but moments for a dog to realize it's not there and he can bark freely.

While curbing the barking, training must be taking place to ensure a quiet dog even without the collar.
While you're shocking your dog for chasing, training must be taking place to ensure he doesn't chase without the collar on or in the absence of someone to do the shocking.

Perhaps this is why Lou's "crittering" training would be a better method than punishing the dog for chasing.
And why another method to breaking him of chasing would be preferable.

Last edited by msvette2u; 12-19-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:59 AM   #117 (permalink)
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I think you have taught him the meaning of no and leave it but not to choose not to chase cars...at least not by reading your post.....perhaps over time he will figure out by association that cars are things to be avoided.. You can teach this with an ecollar. And over time you will need to reinforce it, even after weaning the collar if you ever do.

But if the goal is for the dog to not chase cars if you are not there to say "no" I don't think this is where things are headed.

No more from me.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:37 PM   #118 (permalink)
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But if the goal is for the dog to not chase cars if you are not there to say "no" I don't think this is where things are headed.
THIS!
Geepers. I can think things in my mind but when I go to type, can't figure out how to word it
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:55 PM   #119 (permalink)
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I have a high drive, athletic dog, that wants nothing more than to go outside with ME. He's never once gotten out of the apartment, if he does stick his head out, or his body comes out while the door is open and we're carrying in groceries, its really simple to call him over and get him back into the house.

The Schutzhund clubs you went to sound like they train in very archaic methods. The ones I've been to have slowly been moving towards compulsion and treat based training. And guess what, you can really see the difference in the way the dogs work. A simple pop with a prong or even the tightening of a leash is usually all it takes for the dog to figure out it did something wrong (after it knows what is expected of it). I've never once seen anyone correct hard enough with a prong to make a dog yelp...even the most vocal of dogs at my club.

All the methods you have talked about are extremely heavy handed, and you are comparing what you did with your dog to those. You wrote in a previous thread about how you "can't wait to assert yourself" over your 6 month old puppy. It's fine that you have decided that physicality, pain, and punishment are the only way to train a GSD, but most people have gone away from that. Most people have realized that the "old" ways don't work as well as the new ways. You're stuck on the fact that you have the most driven, hard, athletic GSD that has ever been known to man, and that this is the only way of fixing its problems, but most of the people posting on this thread have had just as "bad" of WL dogs and many have trained their dogs in much more difficult venues than you plan on persuing. Not sure why you're stuck on this one way, it worked for YOUR dog, and only worked for ONE dog. The other methods talked about have been proven on many dogs, by different handlers, over and over again. You put it out there that you did something that 95% of people on this forum find a little over the top and inhumane (not something that's easy to do), and are still arguing that what you did isn't that bad.

Also wanted to add...I think most people aren't argueing with you. I've accepted that you will fight for your method and think its the greatest thing since sliced bread. I just don't want someone that has never dealt with a GSD and has purchased a puppy, to come on this forum when it bites them a few times and read this thread and strap an ecollar onto it's neck. Maybe if those people see that the rest of the world uses other methods for this kind of training they'll try those before moving onto your quick fix.

Last edited by martemchik; 12-19-2012 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:09 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Perhaps it might be a good idea to change the tittle of this thread.

The land shark phase is generally thought to be 8 weeks to about 5 or 6 months, and I don't think anyone wants some new owner to think that a land shark aged 8-week-old puppy should be "treated" with an e-collar.

Maybe call it "Using e collar to discourage car chasing."
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